The Arbitration Committee has a problem to pose to the community, and would like to solicit commentary and solution-suggestions from contributors.

This is a copy of an email I, Raul654, sent to the arbitration committee on June 3, 2005. In the ensuing discussion, arbitration committee members agreed that the problem description is accurate but disagreed with the proposed solution

In the light of some recent commentary [on the arbitration committee mailing list], I'm going to offer my own analysis of the situation. I think this is a very fundamental question and should have input from all members of the committee, and Jimbo too.

It very much used to be the case that arbitration was between one user who was clearly in the right and one user who was clearly causing trouble. (Because, really, until the commitee was created, there really was no way to get rid of troublemakers -- Jimbo exercised his authority so sparingly that it effectively gave them carte blanche to cause trouble). It's no surprise that most of the cases for the first 6-10 months dealt with ejecting troublemakers who had been allowed to roost for far too long.

Now, with the three revert rule acting as an "electric fence" (so to speak) to contain people from fighting revert wars of epic scale (along the lines of people reverting 100 times in a day), and the arbcom available to sort out the matters that are clearly black-or-white, things have become more, well, grey. Mark me this - from here on out, our primary problem will not be users who do nothing but cause general angst, but POV pushers -- people who edit Wikipedia with an agenda (even if they are not aware of it) While this makes our job infinitely harder, THIS IS NOT ACTUALLY A BAD THING. It is a sign that Wikipedia is maturing, that we have successfully established rules and mechanisms to ensure that good decorum is maintained

The $64,000 question is, then, what do we do about POV pushing? The arbcom has, for-better-or-for-worse, avoided getting involved in "content disputes". Now, I don't really like this way of phrasing it - many of our disputes are, ultimately, a dispute about content. We have already in several cases in which we sanctioned users for persistently editing with a particular bias, in violation of our NPOV policy. I think these are obvious examples of us getting involved in a content disputes. It would be more accurate to say that we have avoided dictating what an article should or should not say. Overall, I think this policy has been both good (in that it avoided concentrating too much power in one group of users) but it has also had a marked and demonstrable downside. Often times, POV disputes come down to two people (or groups of people) arguing that their version is better, and they are unable to come up with a compromise. Ideally, this where the mediation commitee would step in and help the disputants solve their problems. Unfortunately - at best - the mediation committee (which is currently dead and I don't see it coming back anytime in the near future) was only marginally effective in this regard. It became more of a stepping stone to the arbitration committee and then was ignored all together.

As a result of our no-content-dispute policy, the arbcom has not really had an effective means of solving these POV disputes (which is, as [arbitration committee member] alluded to earlier, why we have had so much trouble coming up with remedies). We have effectively hamstrung ourselves. More importantly, if the arbitration committee won't do it, who will?

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a quick or easy fix for this. I think the only way to remedy this would be to modify the whole dispute resolution process. It's been over a year since it was last changed, and it's about time we updated it to reflect the experience we have gained.

The solution I would pose is - we need someone (or a group of someones) to fill the vacuum we have created. For the purposes of this email, let's assume it's a group of people that I will refer to hereafter as the 'content committee' - no pun intended. This group would have the authority to decide that one particular version is better, and to impose a binding solution on the disputing parties. Ideally, they would be competent in the area of dispute or a related area. Nor do I think this job would even be particularly hard -- more often than not in a POV dispute, it is quite obvious even to a layman that one version is neutral (or mostly so) and the other is horribly POV.

This commitee would be subordinate to the arbitration committee. We would act as a sort of court-of-appeal, as well as reserving for ourselves the right to hear disputes about behavior. So to summarize -- in effect, I am proposing we replace the mediation committee with a committee (a) comptent in the subject area, and (b) capable of imposing a binding solution on the disputants, while (c) allowing users to bypass this step directly in favor of arbitration. In effect, we became a committee that looks at people behaving badly in general, while they look at specific articles that need a voice of authority to settle a disputes.

Now, just to get into a few other details that should be mentioned. Hypothetically, let's say we created this Content Committee (actually, if we want them to have comptence in a particular subject area, we would probably need to create multiple commitees or at least have ad-hoc ones handy) At first, there would no doubt be a tremendous rush to have them sort out hundreds upon hundreds of issues pertainting to every trivial dispute on Wikipedia. I think it needs to be made clear that the barriers to entry required for this group to take a particular case should be very high. Just because you have a disagreement with user:X on article Y doesn't mean you need to run to the Content Committee. I also think it's important that the people on this committee(s) be accountable to the community. Far be it for me to propose instruction creep (I coined the term, afterall), but if we were to have such a committee, it would probably be a good idea to have yearly elections alongside the arbitration commitee elections in December.

I'd appreciate hearing what all of you think of my idea.

--Mark

I see no reason to replace the Mediation Committee. All that needs to happen there is for some folks who are skilled in mediation to take an interest. That will come as more people are aware of our problem. I will certainly do it after I leave the Arbitration Committee. Although I have only basic training in mediation and no actual experience.

The problems of POV pushers and content disputes are important but not necessarily linked with mediation. In fact, having some definite procedure is vital for making mediation work. If you can say to a POV pusher, "Ok, I can see that you are pushing a point of view and if you go on to further proceedings, others will see it too and you may end up with your editing restricted" then you can start bringing them around to a discussion of how they can ensure that that their point of view is included but not to the exclusion of other points of view. One reason mediation works in life is that litigation, and strikes, are ruinous. Our arbitration procedures are only onerous. Fred Bauder 21:25, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

If a POV pusher can see, by looking at previous cases, that other point of view pushers have not only succeeded in fighting off charges of point of view editing, but been complimented by the Arbitration Committee for their "good work", it is rather difficult to negotiate or mediate with them. Fred Bauder 22:05, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

I believe that the original scope of the arbcom allowed them to handle content disputes. Why not return to that original mandate? Snowspinner 23:16, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

I'd prefer to see this delegated to someone else, frankly - the discussion that led to this RfC was sparked by a long letter of mine suggesting that we're becoming too interfering in the community. I'd personally like to some form of binding mediation - or a less formal and rigid arbitration process - to handle these disputes - so basically decent users never need to come before us at all. I'm really becoming quite against our practice of doling our paroles hand over fist in order to solve these disputes - I think it's going to cost us a lot of good editors if it continues. Ambi 23:26, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Arbcom is a wasite of time just like mediation. Unlike mediation arbcom is active. Since no one helped me resolve my case (even though a few notable attempts were made) I am exterminated off of the picture. You need a degree of SOLID rules and HEAVY enforcement. No maybes no BUTs. NO POV whatsoever policy probably is best otherwise its always a failing system as raises the "who determines whats NPOV and what isnt?" question. While sounding like martial law its actualy fair. There are different levels of pov pushing. Destroying a user is one of them. There should be a structure that "cures" the {{POV}}, {{disputed}}, {{totallydisputed}} articles. Since any idea I thought could improve wikipedia via a few wikiprojects were either "vandalised" to death by even admins or was overwhelingly rejected I no longer suggest ideas. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 01:59, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is an excellent point/issue to raise. It is true that for a long time, conflicts over content could not be resolved unless re-packaged as conflicts over personal behavior and submitted as such to the ArbCom. Now, the ArbCom fills a crucial role. But remember, we are an encyclopedia first, and a wiki-community second. Contenat must be a priority here. I still believe in the wiki-idea, and do not want to refashion ourselves as something more like Nupedia. Be that as it may, we need a meachnism for handling content-related disputes. Obviously such a mechanism would not apply to all content-disputes. Most of us have been involved in content-disputes that were either resolved immediately or after a few days' discussion on the article talk page. But when a dispute goes on for weeks, we need a mechanism. I've been here a long time and although I have no objection to people seeking mediation under such circumstances, the Mediation Committee is not a solution; it is ill-equiped to deal with issues of content. We have two kinds of guidelines: guidelines and guidelines. The ArbCom is really the only body that can enforce behavioral guidelines. It only makes sense that we have another committee to enforce content guidelines. This committee can be independent with a narrow brief (Jguk's proposal) or it can be given a broader brief, but supervised by the ArbCom (Mav's proposal), but we need one of these two proposals to be developed, run by Jimbo, and, if he agrees, institutionalized. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:19, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I find any kind of idea of having a 'content committee' or similar abhorrent, and a reversal of everything wiki. Dan100 22:32, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

If you have an alternate idea that you think could solve the problem, please place it below.

A "content arbitration committee" which merely decides whether a given fact is adequately sourced should be set up - ideally in a way that enables it to give quick binding answers. Anyone ignoring binding answers could be taken immediately before the existing behavioural arbitration committee.

Users will be able to approach the content arbitration with new information/sources even once a decision has been made - but the old decision would remain until explicitly overturned.

For instance: Suppose User 1 adds the following statement to the Bill Clinton article: "Bill Clinton was the best president America has ever had". User 2 removes this as POV. A content arbitration committee would find that the statement isn't adequately sourced. It may be then that User 1 adds the statement "According to the organisation XYZ, Bill Clinton was the best president America has ever had". User 2 removes this as POV, but in this instance User 1 provides a source, so the content arbitration committee would accept this statement as sourced.

What the content arbitration committee would not do is say whether a given statement should actually appear in any given article.

• This idea seems a bit dangerous to me, since it will, in effect, become an editorial committee, something which the community has long agreed we should not have. User:Rdsmith4/Sig 19:34, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

• I'm suggesting something far more restrictive than that. A committee that just states whether a particular statement has been adequately sourced. It would make no comment as to whether that statement should be included in any article, jguk 20:01, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Define "adequately sourced"--it's tougher than you think. For example, could I cite any number of websites and articles to claim that the Bush family controls the Illuminati (or vice versa)? Many fringe theories have actually never been refuted, simply because nobody's even heard of them except for their adherents. Thoughts? Meelar (talk) 20:30, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
  • The best thing you will be able to substantiate is the "[Website A] stated that the Bush family controls the Illuminati" (whatever that is), jguk 20:41, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • See Illuminati, btw. But anyway, I suppose I should have worded my criticism better. Essentially, these committees you're proposing have an exceedingly narrow mandate (is a fact adequately sourced), which wouldn't give a lot of guidance as to broader POV issues. For example, maybe something is true, but is given undue prominence in an article; maybe something is true, but is presented in such a way that it's not neutral. A real example might be in pro-life, which had a picture of President G.W. Bush signing

a bill barring some abortions; the caption in the picture said "Ten pro-life politicians, all male, were present at the signing of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act". This is true and well-sourced, but POV nonetheless, and had it escalated into a real controversy, would not really have been solved under your proposal. An even better example is the recent kerfuffle over BC/BCE, in which both sides were essentially matters of opinion. If you ask me, consensus on talk pages is capable of handling most matters of factual accuracy; it's other types of disputes that present the largest challenge to the current system of dispute resolution. Meelar (talk) 21:01, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

• • • • The BC/BCE debate is an interesting case here. What would a committee decide here, especially as if they were to choose the politically correct option they would end up driving readers away? Readers prefer language they understand - but a committee would decide what its committee members understand (which is not the same as what our readers understand), jguk 21:12, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think this is a very reasonable proposal. We already distinguish between policies concerning content and politics concerning behavior. ArbCom traditionally enforces the policies concerning behavior, and has those policies to guide them. I see no problem with another committee set up to arbitrate disputes over content, as long as their brief is specifically to ensure compliance with content-related policies (NPOV, NOR, Verifiability, Cite Sources). I also think Mav's plan, below, is reasonable. Perhaps the two are complementary (as I see it, the difference is Mav's committees would push us in the direction of a higher quality encyclopedia; Jguk's would simply police violations of, and enforce, existing content-policies). Perhaps at this time, we can only afford to enact one of these proposals, but I bet as the community continues to grow the other one will become important as well. Slrubenstein | Talk

Revive the Mediation Committee. - Mgm|^(talk) 19:37, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

• What makes you think that more of the same-old-thing (which failed once already) will work this time? →Raul654 19:40, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
  • Hold elections and get in more fresh blood. A lot of cases get to arbitration, simply because "Mediation is broken". Mediation would never have "failed" if the mediators weren't getting overworked. Mgm|^(talk) 21:26, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
    • Uh, no, I don't think it's that the mediators were overworked, I think the problem is that they never actually suceeded in getting two parties to agree. I don't think bringing in a bunch of new people is going to fix the fundemental flaw, which is that the people on Wikipedia are not professional negotiators, and simply don't have the skills necesary to sucessfully get two markedly differing camps to agree. →Raul654 00:37, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
      • I think the fundamental flaw of Mediation is that a lot of people simply don't want to do it and not making it mandatory gives POV pushers and other non-compliant people the option to simply ignore discussion. The mediation committee doesn't have enough power to force people to work together. I think mediation can work better with some changes, but I'd need the chance to implement them and prove it works. Mgm|^(talk) 15:26, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
        • I think you've failed to grasp what pretty much everyone else has been saying (including numerous ex-members of the committee) -- (A) that Wikipedia, being a text-only and online phenemenon, does not not lend itself to successul mediation, and (B) that succesful mediation requires great skill on the part of the mediator, and that *almost no* wikipedia have it (Ed being the only exception) according to Ambi. Have you actually tried being a mediator? I tried it once, and it was a *spectacular* failure, for the reasons above - especially (B). So, I think your idea of "let's do the same thing we did before, only on a bigger scale" is doomed from the start because you have failed to correctly identify the reason it failed previously. →Raul654 19:03, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

• I would love to see the mediation committee revived, but the question is how do we revive it? Attempts so far don't seem to have gone anywhere. And an another question: how do we make a mediation committee that is effective in the sort of content dispute that Raul is talking about -- sannse (talk) 20:19, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Effective mediation should make the parties come to an agreement, effectively stamping out any POV problems or arbitration issues. If it's up it should take away at least part of any content dispute as long as the disputants are willing to compromise.

• • They should be made aware that wiki is a collaborative project. Anyone not willing to discuss, should step away from the issue to cool down or face arbitration for disrupting the collaborative process. Mgm|^(talk) 21:26, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
    • This is basically what we tried to do, though. With the exception of those done by Ed Poor, they rarely worked, and when he quit the committee, it was effectively useless. Ambi 23:29, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• I like this proposal, though #3 has some good points in that the committee needs some reforms. I've wanted to serve on the mediation committee for a long time, but every time I went to nominate myself I found another user had been discouraged from nominating themselves, so I directed my energies elsewhere. In my work as an advocate, I have found mediation is often an attainable solution, and I've kept several conflicts from reaching ArbCom because I was able to convince the users I was helping and the users they had conflicts with to reach an understanding and in some cases better their behavior. I know mediation is possible and I see no reason to eliminate or drastically reshape the committee— just a few changes here and there. -JCarriker 00:07, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

• I think MGM should at least be given the chance to try and make the MC work again before we try other, more radical options. Dan100 11:32, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

• See my objection to Sam Spade's solution. David File:Arms-westminster-lb.jpg | Talk 17:28, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Overhaul the mediation committee into something huge, w lots of members and a carefully crafted ability to facilitate binding decisions. These decisions would need to be able to be reviewed, as often as necessary. The current committee is failing due to its smallness in size, and its lack of power. I suggest basic changes like:

• Requiring mediation, rather than allowing it to be voluntary, in contentious cases

• Allowing anyone to become a member, but also allowing clients and or senior mediators (depending on circumstances) to choose who will mediate a given case

• Possessing an ability, carefully restricted, of facilitating binding decisions

• I have some reservations about this model, but as a whole I don't think it's a bad idea. In my experience, I don't think the problem with the original committee was a lack of people. More, it was a lack of mediation skills - we lacked the people who could drag two parties who'd been fighting for weeks together and make them come out with an acceptable compromise. But as to your suggestions - I think requiring mediation would be a useful step - although there's always going to be some cases which will need to head straight to arbitration. And while I'm fond of the idea of binding mediation, I think this could be very very bad mixed with "anyone can be a member". Ambi 23:33, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • The committee could use some reforms, and I agree with Ambi that requiring mediation would be a positive step. The process for becoming a member needs to be more accessable, but I disagree with the premise that anyone could be a member. We'd only end up with problem users on the committee. An vote of confidence is the way to go, similar to the current policy but more like the procedure for admins and bureaucrats. -JCarriker 00:13, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
• I don't like the current process for voting in admins or beurocrats, and obviously I dislike the current MedCom style of choosing their own heirs. That said, I wasn't sure about the "anybody can be a member" bit myself (its not what I first wrote, for example). My general thought is that if someone wants to be a mediator, and their no good, we don't have to choose them. Maybe there should be a process of removing crappy mediators (as we have of removing crappy users) by the elder mediators. All in all, I think power by appointment is bad enough, but that public voting (as opposed to anonymous, or some other method) is terrible. Sam Spade 00:32, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Could you please elaborate more on an alternative voting system. I don't like the current system of selecting mediators, either Please see my post under #2 if you have't already. -JCarriker 00:40, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
• Thats hard, there are alot of them. Frankly, I personally dislike voting a great deal. Not the actual doing of it, but the very concept of it. Wikipedia is not a democracy, it is a concensus driven project. My thought is let anybody who wants be a mediator, and we will quickly learn to respect the abilities of some, and to refrain from seeking the services of others ;) Those who prove themselves will soon become senior mediators, helping to coordinate the less experienced and less successful. Sam Spade 00:47, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • You can only mediate between people who are amenable to mediation - so there's no point making it mandatory. Also making a Mediation Committee open to everyone is a bad idea - most people have few or no mediation skills. Indeed I'm very sceptical that a 15 year old would have the requisite skills to mediate between two professional academics, for example. I have seen many examples where mediation on WP has failed because the "mediator" has become tempted to offer his own opinion on who might be right. Proper mediation not only really needs the mediator to know how to mediate, it also needs patience from all sides. We have a few people who do know how to mediate - but only a few, jguk 06:52, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • You are certainly correct that not everyone has mediation skills, and I strongly agree with your assertion that making the committee open to anyone automatically is not the best idea. As an advocate I have enough sense, to recuse myself from requests where I either strongly agree or disagree with a point of view involved in the conflict, or if I don't have the patience or time to deal with it at the moment. I hope mediators would as well. The only difference is that as an advocate its the best interest of the user your advising, as a mediator its resolving the conflict amicably. Age should not be a factor in selecting a mediator, only the requisite skills should enter into such a decision. I believe you mean average 15 year olds, there are 15 year olds that think on not only an adult level, but are also capable of advanced intellectual discourse and are respected and accepted by fair minded adults; I know this because I was one.- JCarriker 08:15, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
• I think the Mediation committee needs some changes too. Primarily in how requests are handled. I think it needs a subpage structure like RFAr for easy reference and I'll try to make it happen in the event I get chosen as a mediator. I'm not entirely sure about the other changes, though.... Mgm|^(talk) 07:44, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
  • Sounds good to me on both counts. I wouldn't mind being a mediator myself, but I've been discourage by thier process of selection. Good luck!-JCarriker 08:15, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
• I can see problems with this proposed solution. Firstly, mediation is fundamentally a voluntary process: it assumes that those involved want to reach consensus, and even when assuming good faith I can't honestly say that I think that of some of the well-known POV pushers. Secondly, mediation is difficult when done with a group: it works much more easily if it is between two individual users. Thirdly, mediation takes place in private and yet the enforcement would be on the public articles. It's difficult to imagine that it will help matters to refer problem users to a consensus that has been hammered out in private and to which they have not been able to contribute. David File:Arms-westminster-lb.jpg | Talk 17:25, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

For the most part, do nothing. POV editors often cause an improvement in an article because they draw attention and cause refactoring. If all parties are behaving civilly and attempting to be constructive, then the end result should be an improvement. If they are not, then ArbCom can act without considering the POV edits directly. A related idea is that myopic editing should be discouraged, in that we should be more liberal in asking people to take a break from a specific article or set of articles if that is all they are editing, especially where the subject is controversial. We can do this because our community is large enough that it should never cause an article to go without an editor. Wikipedia is not a open pulpit, and we should discourage editors from only working on a small number of articles so that all our articles can be a community project. The discouragement should apply to all users, not just ones we judge to be POV pushers, but we should look the other way for articles where there is no controversy since there is no evidence that there are other editors who wish to contribute.--Gmaxwell 21:25, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I support this. Indeed, being able to persuade a user to take a break from an article and especially to also edit more than just one article would give that user an opportunity to gain perspective. To see how Wikipedia works well elsewhere, away from that user's narrow area of interest or, and this is the issue which it is said is trying to be addressed, away from their own POV pushing. Paul Beardsell 09:14, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So far this is the best idea on the page. Hierarchical content creation will drive a lot of editors away from Wikipedia, and especially from controversial topics (because now the fight is "not their job;" and further, their contributions will be seen as mattering less in light of the content committee's overrule); yet the cure for controversial topics is more editors, not less. This is one idea to "spread things around more," I'd like to hear others. Demi ^T/_C 22:34, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)

Hold tight and wait for Mediawiki 1.5, and hope that the m:Article validation feature can save us.

Or to phrase this more appropriately, look for formalised, structured ways of bringing outside editors into contentious articles. The ideological basis for not having a content committee from day one was sound - the aim was not to concentrate editorial powers into the hands of a small number of users. And feel free to criticise me for being too postmodernist here, but surely all Wikipedians edit with bias, whether conscious or not. A better way might perhaps be to allow either MedCom or ArbCom to enforce policies like WP:V, which are long-standing and well understood, rather than grant them sweeping new powers. WP:RFC is my preferred option for now, although it could be expanded. At least with a well-formed RfC to start from, ArbCom can act without being seen to be editorialising. --bainer (talk) 00:05, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I really like these ideas. All hail m:Article validation feature! Sam Spade 00:37, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the preference for RfC's, but it seems an unreliable mechanism right now. Some RfC's bring a crowd of additional editors to look over a specific dispute and give their opinions, but other RfC's are virtually ignored. How could we increase participation in RfC's? Every time you respond to an RfC, you're allowed one extra revert for that 24-hour period?  :) The point of that joke is that we don't have any immediately obvious way to increase participation. Furthermore, in some cases, the new people commenting will be divided along the old lines, so we're right back in the situation that Raul is addressing. Still, I see more promise in having many people spend a little time on these disputes than in having a few people on a committee or board that has to spend a lot of time on the problem. JamesMLane 11:40, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think you're right, RfC can be quite inconsistent and unpredictable. But my essential point was that content disputes should involve as many editors as possible, and admin/arbitration action should be restricted to enforcing policies, like WP:NPOV, or WP:V, etc. --bainer (talk) 00:10, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree Wikipedia needs a body of people who are willing to volunteer their time to help resolve content disputes, but I think that the methods of such a group should be cast in a less confrontational way than Arbitration. I would suggest we form a fairly large group of experienced, trusted editors who can be called upon to help forge a consensus for the purpose resolving content disputes. Their role should be to take a serious look at the issues in dispute and work with the parties involved to decide how the article should be written. For the sake of a name, maybe call it a "content advisory board" or something similar. Once a consensus has been reached among the parties and their advisors (primarily through discussion, rather than voting), it should be considered binding in the same way as any other consensus, meaning that while other approaches can be discussed, blatant disregard for the consensus would be a behavioral issue subject to Arbitration if neccesary. Dragons flight 00:10, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

Really interesting idea - I was about to write roughly the same. There could be some overlap with the group of admins (who, as I would understand it, would represent trustworthy editors); however, I would recommend for an admin who is somehow involved in the topic to not use his position for exactly this group of articles in order to avoid a conflict of interest (as happened a bit with Cyprus_dispute, Hellenic_Genocide, Turkish_Cypriot_Genocide (now moved) et al). This outside experienced editor - the "advisor" - should know basically about the topic and read up a bit more about it. He should try to remain as neutral as possible, but has to have some executive power as well. As mentioned above, he must be in a position to enforce a reached consensus on users who have a blatant disregard for wikipedia behavioral standards. He should also be able to enforce consensus building and to prevent editing wars, like for instance locking/unlocking the article (in this case, a special notice should be placed on the relevant page - "Temporary Lock") and blocking users for a short period of time. All in all, he should be Superman w/o the laser view ;) - Snchduer 01:22, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A "content advisory board" is an idea that would utterly doom Wikipedia, in my opinion. Do we write what is demonstrably neutral and verifiable, or what the content advisory board tells us we can write? Arbcom can already decide when an editor is writing neutral and verifiable information and when he is not, simply by checking for references, so what purpose would the board serve? --Tony Sidaway|Talk 01:48, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand me. I view it as mechanism for building consensus about what is neutral and verifiable. There are many content disputes where both parties bring references and point to authorities that support their position yet the editors involved can't come to agreement regarding how to describe the dispute and the different positions (for example because both sides want to be described as the prevailing point of view). Having several experienced editors come in and work with them to build NPOV description seems like a reasonable approach to content disputes (as distinct from behavioral disputes). And consensus exists because consensus exists, not because anyone says so. I would not want such a body to be telling people what to do except in the limited scope of issues that already been thoroughly discussed and debated and clear majority of editors (not just advisors) having reached agreement with respect to how to address the problem. It should be a very transparent process, and any decisions so reached would be subject to revision should a new consensus emerge. Dragons flight 02:46, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I still have my doubts but I wouldn't oppose a kind of expert mediation, although I think in practice it would really tax the goodwill of many editors. For instance, I would be surprised if Scientologists could accept an expert mediator who was acceptable to former scientologists or other people who have a history of hostility to scientology, and vice versa. You'd need someone with the stature, and the patience, of Nelson Mandela. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 20:37, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So this would be more in the line of mediation then arbitration then? Ambi 02:49, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, though focused on content, not on personalities. And if strong consensus is reached on content then continued editting in opposition I would imagine would quickly form the foundation of a POV-pushing Arbcom case. (Or possibly one could empower the board to handle that directly, but that would need to be thought through very carefully.) Dragons flight 02:59, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

I think that's one of the best ideas I've heard yet - it deals with the content issue without interfering too much with wiki principles. Ambi 04:26, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If there's a group of editors who is willing to do the work, this would be a good idea, but I'm not sure there is. For example, it would take a good deal of reading for me to comment knowledgeably on the "Hellenic genocide" issue mentioned above. Do we have a large body of neutral parties willing to take on this amount of effort? Meelar (talk) 06:46, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

It strikes me that you'd need to be careful on such a committee. POV (and therefore your sense of what a NPOV is) is determined by each user's background - culture, country, religion, training, interests, politics, etc. If a committee did not have people of a fair mix that generally reflects WP's readership (and editorship) then we'd just end up giving WP a socio-political stance on some issues, jguk 07:01, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I see your point, but do you think it's such an issue when the decisions aren't really binding? Ambi 08:57, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If people are unable to come to agreement on content in Wikipedia, this is no business of arbcom's, or anybody else's.

If editors misbehave, Arbcom should bash their heads together, something it does very effectively and is deservedly proud of.

If editors don't misbehave, I don't think that it can be legitimately stated that a problem exists.

Wikipedia cannot write stable articles on subjects about which there is significant disagreement that cannot be expressed in a manner neutral enough to satisfy all major parties.

"As a result of our no-content-dispute policy, the arbcom has not really had an effective means of solving these POV disputes." Well taking the hotheads out of the mix does help, and is all that arbcom can be expected to do. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 01:01, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Right on! The main proposal here is essentially a power grab by the ambitious and not yet quite powerful enough, in their own opinion. In my view there isn't so much wrong with Wikipedia that abolishment of the ArbCom or, failing which, its impeachment would not fix. Paul Beardsell 02:57, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Erm, maybe if you actually read the proposal...

We're trying to delegate power we already have, and find a way to solve a particularly class of disputes without taking punitive measures against users if that can be avoided, possibly by starting another committee of people to work in this area. Ambi 08:16, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No. That's a nonsense. I have read the proposal. It is actually a proposal not to delegate existing powers but to assume new ones. The ArbCom does not currently have the power to do what is proposed. Now it is proposed we are going to have a sub-committee or another committee which will have overall responsibility for content. And it will not matter whether the new (sub-)committee will be the Editorial Supervision Board or the POV Policing Committee, or the Wikipedia Censorship Panel; the spirit of Wikipedia is broken by this measure. Paul Beardsell 09:09, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Now, you are just talking out of your ass. Yes, as a matter of fact, we *DO* have the power to intervene in content disputes. "The Arbitrators reserve the right to hear or not hear any dispute, at their discretion." --Wikipedia:Arbitration policy. We have voluntarily refrained from dictating what article should say, but that's not to say that we don't have the power to under the rules, and in fact it is an authority which we are looking to delagate away. Your claim that this is a power grab simply does not correspond with reality. →Raul654 21:17, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

If I have erred in overstating my case and such a power really has been already legitimately delegated to the ArbCom, then, OK, my mistake. Else I suggest we have a circular argument from Raul654 yet again. Circular argument: "The ArbCom has a certain power because it has reserved it for itself." Using the same argument the ArbCom could sell Wikipedia to AOL. Now, I know and you know you do not have that power. But I know and you know also that reserving the power to sell Wikipedia in your own self-crafted "policy" would have no effect. Sorry, silly example, but it makes my point. You do NOT have a power just because you have reserved it for yourselves in your own "policy". Saying so is talking out of your arse (to quote you). If you could have made a better argument, that you do legitimately have such a power, then you have not yet made it here. Yet. Try again. Paul Beardsell 23:13, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But the proposal is much more dangerous than it seems. Essentially it means that those unable to make their points in the editing process would be appealing to an editorial panel. It would be a move away from common authorship, a body of work created by its users, to one more like Brittanica. It would kill wikipedia. Paul Beardsell 02:57, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Tony. The wikiway works far more often then it fails. It would be nice if more people got involved in RfCs and 3rd Opinions and nipped problems in the bud. It's amazing what a little education in wikiways and some suggestions of compromises can do. Dan100 10:34, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

Copied here from a message I sent to the mailing list →Raul654 18:42, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

I am keeping an open mind as to possible solutions (although I remain unconvinced by arguments put forth by Tony Sideaway-et-al in favor of more-of-the-same -- keeping the status quo and/or reforming the mediation commitee). Tony's arguement is a sort of optomistic eventualism (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Eventualism). In other words, ignore the problem, let the users fight it out, come back in a year, and the article will have improved... probably. I find this to be a trite and downright lazy response to a real problem. Yes, it is true that in a year, the article will have probably improved. In the meantime, however, good users become frustrated from tangling with POV pushers (Think of Adam Carr as the canonical example, although lesser disputes like this arise on AIDS (with HIV deniars) and Evolution (creationists), and the people there too become burned out). What do you tell someone who edits these articles when a new user comes along, and obviously starts pushing an agenda? It's very easy to view Wikipedia from 2,000 miles high and say everything is fine and getting better, but it's a bit less rosy when you actually come down to earth and actually have to deal with someone like this. In such a case, I don't think Tony's plan for strategic do-nothingness is the best solution -- I certainly think we can do better.

Thanks. Well my approach to this is that editors get burned out because they become wedded to one article or one subject. If I find myself getting too involved in something usually I just move on. I think there is a tendency to think of oneself as being the little boy with his hand in the hole in the dyke, holding back the tide of POV. But in practice I've found that if I just ignore an article for a month or two nothing much bad happens. If I'd spent that month arguing back and forth I would be utterly cheesed off. Thus editor education is more important here than special methods to resolve contentious articles. There are some subjects that will always tend to attract controversy, you put your finger on it when you say there will always be another newbie coming in and playing the POV game. It's all down to education. It isn't the end of the world if Wikipedia says that Kim Jong Il is a tremendously nice chap one day, it doesn't even matter if it says Richard Nixon was the greatest US President of the twentieth century the next. Eventually someone will come along and remove it. Trust your fellow editors. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 20:51, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I see part of the problem is exactly that good editors do "move on" and "avoid conflict," which leads to messes like Religiousness and intelligence. The cure is more editor involvement, not good editors staying away from subjects where they know they'll be in a fight. I agree that no new committees should be formed, and no big actions taken, but a little nudge here or there might improve. Demi ^T/_C 23:13, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)

It's been my experience that there are some common themes in NPOV disputes, typically:

• Slightly delusional editors: Someone who believes he/she has a special handle on reality and discounts alternative points of view.
• Semantics. For example, I was taken to task by an anonymous editor for writing that people were murdered in Auschwitz. This, the person felt, was a prejudicial term - "killed," he said, would be neutral.
• Burden of proof. The stuff of rhetorical fallacies - one part views his/her facts as self-evident; while there aren't enough sources to substantiate the other point of view.

I would propose that we designate individuals who take it upon themselves to facilitate a structured dialogue on what precisely the points of disagreement are, consider suggestions to bridge the gaps, and if necessary, submit a proposed new version to the arbcom, explaining how the proposed version was arrived at. The arbcom will then be able to evaluate the proposed version and decide what to accept.

The designated individuals would get this responsibility by:

1. Tagging themselves as candidates for the role
2. Explicitly recusing themselves from topics where they have a POV
3. Successfully editing a number of NPOV disputes, getting endorsements from both parties
4. Being granted the designation, and then accepting assignments

--Leifern 15:03, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

• I don't think it'd work. Everyone has a POV on pretty much all disputes around Wikipedia. People need to recuse in all such cases leaving little to go with. Mgm|^(talk) 15:20, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
  • What makes you think everyone has a POV on all disputes? And if that were true, nothing would work, since the same argument between two individuals would carry over into the arbcom, mediation committee, etc. --Leifern 15:27, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
• I don't see how or why admins should recuse themselves from editing articles on which they know they have a strong POV, if their edits are perfectly in accordance with NPOV. Remember, one of the principles we live by on WP is that evidence of POV pushing outside of WP is no evidence of POV pushing inside it. David File:Arms-westminster-lb.jpg | Talk 17:09, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • I stand correct,Dbiv makes perfect sense. As long as people can keep detached and don't push their own POV it might actually work. Mgm|^(talk) 17:14, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
• Your idea is very close to one I've been considering, Leifern, with some small differences. (Correct me if I misunderstand your intent, & I'll fork this under a section of alternative proposals.) My idea would be to have the ArbCom appoint a referee with the power to require the various parties in the dispute to write their own versions of the article -- but making them follow such preferred guidelines such as NPOV, citing sources, etc. This referee does not make anything more than minor edits (e.g., grammar, spelling, minor points of style), limiting her/his input to getting the parties to keep working on their drafts until they are two parts of the same article -- at which point the referee then merges the versions. I really don't know if this could work, but it could at least be tested by the ArbCom by making it part of their remedies -- as I believe so could your proposal. -- llywrch 03:13, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My idea is similar to Raul's. Here is my email response to Raul on the ArbCom mailing list:

Interesting idea. I floated an idea very similar to this a while back on WikiEN-l when there was a move to force the ArbCom to make these type of decisions directly. My idea was to have a content specialist subcommittee to the ArbCom that we would consult when content issues arise. They would *not* have any power to enforce their decisions nor any authority of their own. But we could declare their decisions binding for issues we present to them by an up or down vote (although I imagine that voting down would be as rare as jury nullification is in the real world).

This would, IMO, set up proper checks and balances.

The big issue as I see it, is recruitment of non-involved parties and whether or not this would be a standing set of subcommittees (each with their own set of coverage) or if we would have to empanel them on a case-by-case basis (we would likely have to do this at first to build enough subcommittees, anyway).

....

Each branch of the subcommittee would cover a different broad area of knowledge, such as biology, chemistry, or history. As the Wikipedia community grows sub-branches will be formed as needed (history will likely be the first area to have this happen). Members of the subcommittee would be elected by the community for their knowledge in the area (as demonstrated on Wikipedia or through outside credentials) and for their good behavior and neutrality. They would, of course, recuse themselves if they are involved in any case before them.

The content subcommittee would not declare certain facts to be true, but would instead judge whether or not a user in arbitration has followed Wikipedia policies that concern content (such as No original research and NPOV). Making this determination is something that requires knowledge in the area of the content dispute.

The reason why I think this would be a better plan than having a fully separate content committee is that cases are almost always an intertwined mix of behavioral issues and content issues. So having completely separate bodies looking at different aspects would be redundant and would very often result in a case being heard twice.

The potential danger of this plan that needs to be guarded against is the possibility of drifting from NPOV and toward an SPOV (specialist/sympathetic POV) where the view of so-called specialists dominates articles and outside views are marginalized more than is appropriate. So vigilance and oversight will be needed. --mav 17:02, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I quite like this idea although I think it needs to be developed into a fully worked path. Firstly, I would not refer to a 'content specialist committee' but to an 'NPOV consultation committee' as describing more accurately what it would do. There already is an NPOV tutorial to which users who have developed good ways of achieving NPOV are invited to contribute, so I don't think it violates wiki principles. What I think is needed is an agreed process for what happens when other editors (not being sockpuppets) continue to edit against the findings of the committee as endorsed by ArbCom. Also, if ArbCom is to accept purely content disputes, is it appropriate for them to impose the same sorts of sanctions as for user conduct cases? David File:Arms-westminster-lb.jpg | Talk 17:46, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• • Well NPOV is not the only issue that would be looked at, strictly speaking. But Content Consultation Subcommittee would be a good name (thus avoiding the use of 'specialist'). If and when other people edit in the same way, then there would already be a case against another user that could be used as a template to expedite a new case against the new user. I am weary of having direct rulings over content be binding to people who never even heard of the case before. Thus the use of an expedited arbitration process once the offending user is made aware of the situation and fails to modify his/her behavior. --mav 17:57, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I like this proposal, although it will take time to set up and there will be (of course) disputes over who should be eligible for any one committee. Also, I think this proposal needs to be formulated narrowly enough so that Wikipedia does not become nupedia (I am sure Mav has already thought of this). For the record, I also think Jguk's plan, above, is reasonable (as I see it, the difference is Mav's committees would push us in the direction of a higher quality encyclopedia; Jguk's would simply police violations of, and enforce, policies like NPOV, NOR, Cite Sources, and Verifiability). Perhaps the two are complementary. Perhaps at this time, we can only afford to enact one of these proposals, but I bet as the community continues to grow the other one will become important as well. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:45, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I can't really see this as workable. Do we have enough 'experts' in areas required? How would they be elected to these sub-committees? Dan100 22:14, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

The people question is the question. Without enough qualified people, my plan would not work. I fully agree with you on that point, but I do think that the community is large enough that a fraction of them could serve on a content subcommittee in their area of expertise. The beauty of the my plan as I see it, is that the arbcom would not have to greatly change the way it does things and the dispute resolution process would not need to have an extra step.

The content subcommittees would be a resource the arbcom uses to help it check what is or is not NPOV or otherwise not appropriate content-wise in areas that the arbcom is not competent in (we are a mixed bunch, so as a whole the only area we are collectively competent to judge are cases involving behavioral infractions). I gave the example of me knowing very little about advanced mathematics on the mailing list. That means that I am not really qualified to determine what is an NPOV treatment and what is bordering on original research in that area (I could do this, but it would take a great deal of time and research). Having a pre-selected and vetted group of mathematicians to ask would be a great service to the arbcom. How they are elected is something I'd like to get more community input on. --mav 02:13, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What does it mean to establish consensus? Once established, what if one dissenting user continues to edit counter to that consensus--is that a disruption? It seems to me that some of what Raul654 is trying to address boils down to that. Let's not have an NPOV committee--we are all the NPOV committee, and the less we have to distinguish between "greater" and "lesser" users the better. But once we've "come to our decision," perhaps we need to make it clearer that editing in opposition to that consensus is disruptive; or that going on an editing crusade in the absence of a consensus to do so is also disruptive.

This could be added to the existing WP:NPOV and Wikipedia:Consensus. I'm not suggesting vote counts or anything similar here, just some additional nudging so that people will feel freer to involve themselves in subjects which are "fought" over--the more editors for these, the better (and note my support for Gmaxwell's proposal above). If people feel like they have done something useful in participating in a consensus discussion, rather than buying themselves an endless fight, they will probably be more likely to do so. Demi ^T/_C 22:53, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)