Heraldry and vexillology Start‑class

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An event mentioned in this article is a May 26 selected anniversary.

Should we mention that the star formation is similar to a historical flag of the US?

This one: http://www.crwflags.com/art/hist/us13betsy.gif

Bogdan | Talk 20:31, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I removed the phrase 12 Stars & 12 States from the table. This is very misleading, suggesting that there's a relationship between the number of stars and the number of members (underlining and bold-facing it only strengthens that impression). But right above the table it clearly states there is no relationship - with a link to prove it. Abigail 12:56, Apr 28, 2004 (UTC)

The flag does bear a striking resemblance to that of the International Paneuropean Union, an organization led by Otto von Habsburg, the current head of the legendary Habsburg family--a family which produced at least 19 Holy Roman Emperors.

This looks like a pretty tenuous link to me. You might as well say "The flag is used by the European Parliament, which for twenty years counted among its members Otto von Habsburg, the current head of the legendary Habsburg family--a family which produced at least 19 Holy Roman Emperors." Marnanel 12:50, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There is another problem with this -- I've not been able to the date when the International Paneuropean Union created its flag. Therefore I don't know which flag influenced the other. Saying just that there's "a similarity" between the flags is immature as it's an implication in favour of the conspiracy theory. That's just a factual complaint, which we may soon resolve by some further research.

Secondly we must learn to separate two different facts. One, it may be influenced or even directly derived from the International Paneuropean Union flag. Two, the conspiracy theories that lead to the connection between this organization and the Holy Roman Emperors. Since there are two separate bits of information, where the former connection may exist *without* the latter, we must mention them as two different bits of information, rather than predispose the reader infavour of the conspiracy theory by presenting them as a single item.

I'm gonna rewrite the sentence given the above problems I believe exist. Aris Katsaris 19:53, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Actually it is not a myth:

"The European flag of 12 yellow stars on a blue background also owes something to Catholicism. Arsene Heitz, who designed it in 1955, recently told Lourdes magazine that his inspiration had been the reference in the Book of Revelation, the New Testament's final section, to “a woman clothed with the sun...and a crown of twelve stars on her head." (The Economist, October 28, 2004) [1]

Maybe we should rewrite that section. Bogdan | Talk 20:53, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It should be Christianity, not just Catholicism. --Error 01:54, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Is it worth noting that there's a distinction between the meaning attributed to the flag by the designer, and any 'official' meaning? 203.221.18.161 12:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just so you know, it's the Crown of Immortality you're talking about. - Roberth Edberg 15:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Does somebody remember a flag consisting mainly of a big green E? --Error 01:54, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, but you've made me think of the slightly comical jubilea simbolo which is the closest thing I know of to what you describe. — Trilobite (Talk) 04:59, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's the flag of the European movement. -- Joolz 17:54, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The flag is symmetrical, isn't it ? Is there really an upside down version that is incorrect ? Parmaestro 05:44, 13 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I had the same question until I looked at a larger image of the flag. when you turn the entire flag over, the stars are all upside down. I tried to clarify the original note 'This flag is upside-down.' by adding ', or the individual stars are,'. If you now understand what I'm saying, do you have any suggestions for improving the text? -- Ec5618 09:57, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks so much. I should have looked more closely. Stars rotated incorrectly, two at the top instead of two at the bottom, perhaps ? Parmaestro 10:33, 13 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the stars shoulds have one point sticking straight up, and two pointing downward.

'This flag is upside-down, or the individual stars are. Each star should have a single point pointing up.' -- Ec5618 10:59, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

I've removed the image of the flag from this and other pages today as a vandalised version has been uploaded. Hopefully this can be restored soon but I don't have the facility to do this at the moment! Wombat 14:55, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• 
  This flag is, or the individual stars are, upside-down.
• 
  The stars are rotated incorrectly. All the stars should be rotated the same i.e. with two points at the bottom and one at the top.
• 
  The stars are in the wrong positions; they should be in the "O'Clock" positions.

I have an objection to the page title, as this is not the flag of Europe (which, like most other continents, has no flag), but the flag of the European Union. The European Union does not include all the countries of Europe. Therefore, the title should be changed. Jon Harald Søby 16:28, 21 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I thought that too, but then I found that the article itself says otherwise:

Although the flag is most commonly associated with the European Union (EU), it was initially used by the Council of Europe (COE), and intended to represent Europe as a whole as opposed to any particular organization such as the EU or the COE.

The flag was originally adopted by the Council of Europe on 8 December 1955, from a suggested design by the Chief Herald of Ireland. The Council of Europe from the beginning desired it to be used by other regional organizations seeking European integration. The European Community (EC) adopted it on 26 May 1986. The European Union, which was established by the Maastricht Treaty in 1992 to replace the EC and encompass its functions, also adopted the flag. Since then the use of the flag has been controlled jointly by both the Council of Europe and the European Union.

Wombat 09:26, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. Didn't see that coming, lol. Still, it may have been designed as a flag for Europe, but today it is not associated with Europe as a whole, but with the European Union; citizens in non-EU European countries like Norway (where I'm from), Switzerland and Iceland don't feel that the flag regard them.

So, would there be any objections to this page being moved to "Flag of the European Union"? Jon Harald Søby \ ^{no na} 15:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I take your point: many people in countries that are European but aren't EU members don't feel the flag applies to them. But still, strictly speaking, the flag does apply to them. So I'm not sure we should rename the article just because many people would mistakenly think it should be renamed, if you see what I mean. Perhaps it's better, instead, to keep the current title but then add a paragraph making this point in the article itself? What do you think? Wombat 18:05, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I suppose that's the best way to do it. =) Jon Harald Søby \ ^{no na} 20:44, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe the page for Flag of the United States should be renamed American Flag? 203.221.18.161 12:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So are we going with Gerard Slevin, or Arsene Heitz, or a committee of the Council of Europe arguing about numbers of stars --Henrygb 23:35, 3 September 2005 (UTC)?[reply]

Slevin's input is disputed. See rec.heraldry discussion.

It can now be confirmed that the claim that Irish Chief Herald Chief Slevin designed the European Flag is untrue. Slevin played a role in the process of selecting a design, but it was a relatively late and minor one. See sourced account at http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/euroflagmemo.html Sean Murphy, 10 December 2005

Which role played Arthur Eisenmenger? His Wikipedia page (also the German version) and at least one trustable external source claim that he has designed the flag. We should go for consistency here. – Torsten Bronger 08:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The linked BBC article is highly misleading, to say the least. The Commission never asked Koolhass to design a new flag, they never considered to make this barcode label proposal the official EU flag, and they couldn't simply change the flag at whim even if they wanted. Sentences like "EU officials are currently examining the design, which if approved could soon be flying from flagpoles across the continent." are simply wrong. One should remove the link or better add a remark in the paragraph about this flag.

Sorry, I don't know if I made comment the right way, hope so. I read "a myth" tells italian representive opposed to increase the number of stars to 13 as that is an unlucky number. I think this is not a myth but a hoax, as, in Italy, 13 is a lucky number, as the unlucky one is 17. I think that must be removed, if you agree.

The Crown of Immortality has twelve stars. - Roberth Edberg 15:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The change in title from European Flag to Western European Flag (as of 15th July by Nixer) I think is wrong, it is a flag to represent the whole of Europe regardless of which area it was designed in. The EU is clearly not just Western Europe, with Finland, Estonia and Cyprus being members, much of south east Europe joining (but not several Western nations) and it being used by countries and peoples with EU ambitions, such as by the Georgian President or the pro-democracy protestors in Belarus. In addition as it is the Council of Europe's flag first and currently the only European country not connected to it officialy is Belarus. And by saying it came from the west is no excuse for calling it the Western European flag, or should we call the US flag the Eastern US flag? This is the EUROPEAN flag, and limiting it to Western Europe in the title is an insulting.

--88.105.157.78

This flag does not represent the whole Europe, so the article name is incorrect. Maybe we should consider page move.--Nixer 04:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As the article says, the flag is intended to represent Europe as a whole. And it's the flag of the Council of Europe, whose members include almost every European country, from Portugal to Russia. In any case, it's called the European flag, and it's not for Wikipedia to start making up new names. --Zundark 07:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And why would be the Flag of the European Union incorrect? --Irpen 07:42, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Council of Europe is a political entity, not only geographic. Not only Belarus, but also Kazakhstan (which partially located in Europe) is not member of the Council of Europe, as well as Vatican City. Council of Europe not only requires the country to be European, but also pro-Western. From historical perspective we can see that during the Cold War the flag was used only in Western Europe. In fact, now the flag is used by two unrelated bodies: the EU and the Council of Europe. So I think moving to Flag of the European Union would be appropriate with a redirect from Flag of Council of Europe. By the way, I think calling the African Union's flag "Flag of Africa" is also incorrect.--Nixer 08:09, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is not the job of Wikipedia to set the correct name here. It must simply report what name for the flag is actually used. Here is the official europa.eu website which calls the flag the European flag [2].

I think declaring by the 13 Western European countries comprising about 15% of European territory and about 25% of its population the flag of their union as "Flag of Europe" is a Cold War trick. How would you consider if some 10 countries now declare that the flag of their union is the "Flag of Humanity" or the "Flag of the Earth"?--Nixer 08:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Our feelings and considerations are irrelevant. Wikipedia must report facts, whether we like them or not. If you want to add a "criticism" section to the current article, backed up by references of course, which lists valid objections to the use of the "European flag" name, feel free to do so. Balcer 08:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, with the expansion coming in January 2007 about 70% of Europe's population will live in the EU, so calling the flag European flag will not be that inaccurate. Balcer 08:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

About 50% of European territory is located in Russia and Russia will never become a EU member. And did you ever seen the Flag of African Union to be called "Flag of Africa"? Note that in the African Union lives more than 90% of African population.--Nixer 08:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if the African Union starts to use the name "Flag of Africa" as the official name, Wikipedia would need to have an article under that name. Anyway, if you don't like the name "European flag", please start some kind of political or protest campaign to get the European Union to change the name. But remember that Wikipedia must reflect the world as it is and not as it should be, so it is not a proper place for such a campaign. Balcer 09:05, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Will you support creation of Flag of Earth article if I design such flag for Humanity in my kitchen and promote it in "Metro" newspaper or something else? Of course, you should not create "criticism" section because you have not sourced objections (of course until you institute a political movement against such initiative).--Nixer 09:43, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If your new flag really becomes notable, according to Wikipedia notability standards, I will support a Wikipedia article about it! Good luck on your project! Balcer 09:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but will you support an article, which seriously says it is the Flag of Earth? I dont object the article about the flag of EU, but if it is moved to or called in the article "Proposed flag of Europe" I will be satisfied.--Nixer 10:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Proposed flag of Europe"? That name makes no sense to me at all. As for "Flag of Earth", I would have no objection in principle to have an article under that title. Of course, if that flag is not actually the flag of Earth but just some notable symbol someone made up, then the article would explain that. Balcer 10:18, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It may be the flag of political institutions but it is widely seen by people in and outside of those institution to mean Europe as a whole and it's unification, and although three states are outside, one is mainly Asian, one is tiny and can barely be called a state and the other hardly makes up much of the European population. Just because the two main organisations which use the symbol have Human Rights standards doesn't mean it can't apply to them, or will cease to apply upon their objection. Would we rename the Polish flag because the Mayor of Krakow complained no one asked them about it?

In addition, the term "Europe" is increasingly taken as the European Union, in the same way "America" is said with the meaning of the United States of America. Should we stop people referring to their flag as the American flag because Brazil isn't part of the US?

We never refer in Wikipedia to Flag of the United States of America as "Flag of America" or "Frag of America as whole" or even "Flag of North America". There was a procedure of acception of Polish flag as a consequence of nation-wide elections, but the COU flag was declared as flag of the entire continent by countries comprising tiny part of it. And if not the end of Cold War and dessolution of the USSR this flag would known as "European" only in tiny number of countries. In fact it is politically charged symblol, not a geographically defined emblem.--Nixer 16:42, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A section disputing the validity of it's name would be fine but I agree with the above, it is called the flag of Europe by the world and it should be called by that here. As for African and Earth flags, well I wouldn't be surprised if in time it is called the "African Flag" as it and their union gains more notoriety. Seams to me if you object to the term "European" in the flag you ought to object to the term "European" in the European Union.

How about the Flag of Antarctica (not to mention Flag of Mars) should those be moved to Proposed flag of ...

That article starts with "There is no official flag of Antarctica". May be we should start this article in the same manner?--Nixer 17:08, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do not understand why Nixer has the idea that a flag must be adopted legally before it becomes the flag of a country. Although no law has ever been passed making the Union Flag (in any of its versions) the official flag of the United Kingdom, nobody seems to be claiming that it isn't. Nor has there been any law naming it the "Union Flag." From the argument above, I take it that Nixer would recommend that the world should now refer to it as "the proposed flag of the UK." What a mouthful! --Specul8 16:04, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

technically I believe the flag currently (or at least until very recently) had the same status as the flag of a private corporation. It has/had no official legal recognition and therefore should not be flown in place of the union flag or the individual flag of each nation (cross of st george etc). 130.246.132.26 16:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article title is inconsistent with the naming of other flag-related pages, which all start with "Flag of". The article should be moved to "Flag of Europe". - LeonWhite 03:18, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Because it is not flag of Europe. Since the Council of Europe changed the flag, this flag represents only about half of Europe (by territory). "European" is its name probably.--Nixer 19:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is there an official interpretation of the colours of the flag? Is it "blue and yellow" or "blue and gold"?

The Council of Europe define the colours as Pantone Relfex Blue and Pantone Yellow see here http://www.coe.int/T/E/Com/About_Coe/flag_guide.asp#TopOfPage. Please remember to sign your comments. --Brideshead 17:55, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where has this image come from? Is there a source that this is a serious proposal considered by the European Council and not just someone playing with CorelDraw? The council have made it clear that there are no plans to change the flag, the 12 stars have no relation to number of states, why would a change be needed now at the 5th enlargement? In addition the stars used are the wrong type. If this can't be properly sourced to an official European proposed change, I think it should be removed as misleading. --Brideshead 17:50, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I haven't been able to find any proposal for this flag, so I'm commenting it out, so the uploader has the opportunity to find a supporting basis for it. -- Arwel (talk) 20:26, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was added by Wkobylinski, and when he added it the first time, he attributed it to one Wiktor Kobyliński (presumably himself). He has uploaded eight different images of it. --Zundark 08:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes, I see. It's plainly Original Research, then, so away it goes. -- Arwel (talk) 08:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are similairities with the Crown of Immortality. Roberth Edberg 15:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Living between Ireland and Britain post-1973 there was definitely a 15 star flag in use in those countries (to also represent the 3 additional countries Ireland, UK, Denmark): whether unofficially, to placate the countries' populations in terms of recognizing them in the flag everyone assumed had 1 star per country, or not. I find no mention of this in the Wiki entry, which surprises me. Perhaps if an official Wiki editor can get corroboration of what I said, this can be included in the Wiki itself. Peter Douglas, Dublin, Ireland