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→Change the results part: Self-correction: Status quo & Ghent already in Infobox
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Instead of “inconclusive” why not “Britain successfully defends its Northern American colony” and “treaty of Ghent” or maybe “ status quo ante bellum “ [[User:John67373|John67373]] ([[User talk:John67373|talk]]) 03:08, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
Instead of “inconclusive” why not “Britain successfully defends its Northern American colony” and “treaty of Ghent” or maybe “ status quo ante bellum “ [[User:John67373|John67373]] ([[User talk:John67373|talk]]) 03:08, 18 April 2023 (UTC)


:''Status quo ante bellum'' and Treaty of Ghent used to be part of the Results line, and I think they should be still, since there were no significant territorial, material, military or political gains for any side (although the Indian tribes were clear losers)."Inconclusive" by itself (though I think it is still accurate and should also appear) might suggest that some other conclusion had been reached later, whereas the status quo has lasted for over two centuries.
:''Status quo ante bellum'' and Treaty of Ghent <s>used to be part of</s> are in the Results line, and I think they should <s>be still</s> remain there, since there were no significant territorial, material, military or political gains for any side (although the Indian tribes were clear losers)."Inconclusive" by itself (though I think it is still accurate and should also appear) might suggest that some other conclusion had been reached later, whereas the status quo has lasted for over two centuries.
:But the War over the Infobox has already lasted three or four times as long as the War of 1812 itself. Cogent arguments have been made that the Canadians won (by averting American invasion), that the Americans won (by preventing a reassertion of British dominance), that both sides won, and that nobody won. {A minority view was argued by one editor for over a decade that Britain was the victor.) See above on this page and in these Archives: [[#/Archive 8]], [[#/Archive 9]], [[#/Archive 14]], [[#/Who Won?]] and [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-11-11/War of 1812]] [[User:Shakescene|—— Shakescene]] ([[User talk:Shakescene|talk]]) 05:28, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
:But the War over the Infobox has already lasted three or four times as long as the War of 1812 itself. Cogent arguments have been made that the Canadians won (by averting American invasion), that the Americans won (by preventing a reassertion of British dominance), that both sides won, and that nobody won. {A minority view was argued by one editor for over a decade that Britain was the victor.) See above on this page and in these Archives: [[#/Archive 8]], [[#/Archive 9]], [[#/Archive 14]], [[#/Who Won?]] and [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-11-11/War of 1812]] [[User:Shakescene|—— Shakescene]] ([[User talk:Shakescene|talk]]) 05:28, 18 April 2023 (UTC)


Revision as of 14:14, 18 April 2023

    Template:Vital article

    Former featured article candidateWar of 1812 is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
    Article milestones
    DateProcessResult
    March 1, 2004Featured article candidateNot promoted
    On this day...Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on June 18, 2004, June 18, 2005, June 18, 2006, June 18, 2007, December 24, 2010, and June 18, 2018.

    Not A Neutral Article

    This article states more often than not that the cause of the war was British actions. The historians quoted supporting this view, however, are all American and their objectivity is obviously questionable.

    Needs a discussion as to whether this is an American-centric article and should be more neutral as per Wikipedia guidelines. Sheppey Red (talk) 18:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Provide examples, because I don't see a real problem.
    There is a wide variety of opinions in the United States on the War of 1812. U.S. historians Ronald Drez and Troy Bickham clearly don't share the same opinion of this war. Same with U.S. historians Donald Hickey and George Daughan.
    I would like to know why Benn and Lambert are still quoted on the main article. Lambert is just a Royal Naval enthusiast with very heavy anti-American rhetoric who failed to research the land campaign. Benn's information is better but very outdated; the book is not nearly as informative as Taylor or Toll.
    American-centric would be that the United States won. The main article is far from that perspective. I would argue that the article gives too much emphasis to the Canadas based on modern popular perception. Ironic Luck (talk) 00:44, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It is often screamed that this article is tilted. One gentleman took it as a personal crusade to have the article state that the British won for 13 years. Throughout the report, we took pains to present the facts and only the facts without commentary of any sort. While a small war, it is a complex one. Some Canadians would swear on a stack of bibles that American greed was the only reason the war started. Some Americans insist that since we kept the country whole, we won. However, there is ample documentation on both the American Government of the time and the British that maritime trade was the issue.
    The object of contention over the last 15 years that I have been involved as an editor on this article has been the outcome section. There are and remain wars that do not lend themselves as a won/lost outcome. This war was one of them. Having read through the letters and memorandum of both governments, it becomes apparent that both sides wanted out of a war that had no chance of ever ending outside of a settlement.
    As with the American Revolutionary War, trying to supply and equip an army for continuous operations from across the Atlantic Ocean was all but impossible in the age of sail. Moreover, the lack of a good transportation network crippled any offensive operation from either side of the US/Canadian border. Further, the one edge the British enjoyed in land operations, a professional military, had disappeared when American professional military formations began appearing.
    British proponents will point with pride the accomplishments of the Royal Navy. Rightly so. But, America didn't need trade as anything but a profit center. As I have repeatedly stated, neither side ever concluded a successful offensive campaign.
    From the long view, the America of 1812 was unwilling to change society to field a large professional army and build a road network to enable a successful Canadian campaign. That same lack kept the British from accomplishing attempts to move forward with such ended in disasters. The two sides were like drunken boxers able to hurt one another but never force a conclusion.Tirronan (talk) 18:24, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Side, or off-track, comment about professional militaries: I think that the main reason that Great Britain could field a significant professional military force in 1812 was that she was fighting Napoleon at the same time. Otherwise, from what I've read, the British have also (for broadly the same anti-authoritarian and thrifty motives as their American cousins) generally preferred a small full-time professional army in peacetime (preferably serving overseas) but the strongest Royal Navy possible. (As far back as the Middle Ages, England tried to keep a body of seasoned seamen by measures such as the Cinque Ports and meatless post-Reformation "political Fridays" to maintain a market for fish and work for fishermen.) Rudyard Kipling was a strenuous critic of popular (and he felt undeserved) disdain for the common soldier in works such as Tommy Atkins. In the first part of The Lion and the Unicorn: Socialism and the English Genius ("England your England") George Orwell wrote that the Englishman's "dislike of standing armies is a perfectly sound instinct. A navy employs comparatively few people, and it is an external weapon which cannot affect home politics directly. Military dictatorships exist everywhere, but there is no such thing as a naval dictatorship." [1]—— Shakescene (talk) —— Shakescene (talk) 00:49, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    While I agree the article is a mess with a pro-American slant (e.g Britain's successful use of blockade & maritime power to strong-arm the United States' out of her demands over impressment/maritime belligerent rights- the casus belli for war to begin with- is largely glossed over), is it the quality of the arguments that matter and not the nationality of the historian. Would you accept the blithe dismissal, by an American moderator, of any analysis by British historians purely because the argument in question was/is being advanced by scholars from the UK, regardless of said argument's merit? No.

    As an aside, there seems to be a sort of consensus (particularly after the bicentennial) on both sides of the Atlantic on certain issues: A. The attempt by the U.S. government to force concessions over maritime belligerent rights from the British was a failure B. Britain contained the American challenge by land and sea without shortchanging her successful military & diplomatic in Europe, the latter being the Liverpool Government's priority during this period. C. Naval Blockade & amphibious operations were the main weapon in Britain's arsenal, something which the US was woefully unprepared to deal with. The consequences can be deen during peace negotiations (the destruction of American economic power and therefore her ability to wage war, the large degree of impunity with which the RN and British Army pillaged the American coast). These have been mentioned in the article- but their consequence are underrepresented.

    Instead, space is dedicated to the position that the war was a "draw" (per se) because Britain didn't obtain a peace on the basis of Uti Possidetis. There are three key flaws with this position, which go largely or totally ignored in the article: 1. Uti Possidetis was NOT a British sine qua non (i.e a key war aim) for peace. 2. The above is evidenced by the fact that the British Government was fully prepared to forego the prospect of serious strategic gain in North America if a peace could be secured which guaranteed their key war aims (defence of the Canadas, de facto control over Maritime belligerent rights). That is why the British government signed the Treaty of Ghent fully expecting the expedition against New Orleans to succeed. 3. The British government's priorities in Europe, at Vienna, were just as significant as American military success at Plattsburgh in making a Uti Possidetis peace impossible.

    I've used British, Canadian and US sources to reach this conclusion (Donald Hickey, the US Naval War College, Brian Arthur, Donald Graves, Jon Latimer and Andrew Lambert). F.M. Sir D.H (talk) 16:42, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    The British were forced to compromise with a fledgling nation.
    There was no consensus during the bicentennial. There was a lot of propaganda pushed by the Canadian government (and their popular historians like Ron Dale who promoted annexation theory) during the bicentennial and the British historians pushed out books that lacked proper research (i.e. Lambert). Lambert was criticized by Hickey for his lack of research done.
    The United States did not put much (if any) promoting material into the War of 1812 because it was not an interesting war. The American Civil War and World War II were still in the general public’s minds and were (to be blunt) more popular.
    The British lost all influence within the United States boarders. All supporters of the British were defeated (i.e. Tecumseh’s Confederacy, Red Stick Creeks, Spanish Florida) and reputations ruined and even chased out of states (i.e. A Federalist sheriff who smuggled for the British was chased out of Maine in post-War of 1812).
    Madison was informed that the British stopped impressing sailors and dropped the demand. Why did he need to “spike the football” and demand the British place it in writing when they (in practice) were not doing this? The United States did not need to force concessions because the British actively avoided impressing American sailors in the post-War of 1812 era and during the Hundred Days War. The fact that this is lost on you is concerning . . .
    Territory claimed. Impressment ended. Should the Americans claim victory? I see the British tried to salvage from embarrassments that hurt their reputation due to the early American naval successes in the war, but the British left the War of 1812 as a humiliated nation. The British publications of that era did not rejoice in celebration as the United States did.
    This was not a war that I would call a “great success” for the Royal Navy. The Royal Navy failed in the early half of the war on the Atlantic Ocean and (as a world power compared to the United States). As for sea, Lake Erie or Champlain were certainly not British successes.
    The British failed to contain the American “challenge” by land as they still held territory by the end and only relinquished it when the glorified cease-fire at Ghent commenced. Dudley’s Raid occurred in November 1814 and plans to build more ships were put in place until the Treaty of Ghent was signed (and ratified).
    As for “impunity,” I find it interesting you say that when the British lost more Major Generals and (overall) higher ranked figures in this war than the Americans did. The Duke of Wellington lost his brother-in-law over this war and Cochrane’s reputation was soiled. And I agree on Hickey in that the peace was won (something you forget) as the British were forced to pay for compensation for the losses of the free slaves as cited from Alan Taylor.
    Lambert has been disingenuous as he lied about the British not paying for the escaped slaves in television documentaries and Arthur (the latter that has acted as “Lambert Jr.,”) were both from the same think-tank that promotes British nationalism. Arthur was very critical of historian Wade Dudley and (to a much lesser extent) Ian Toll. Arthur wrote on Dudley’s book (within his own), “Dudley’s conclusion that the British blockades of the United States were comparatively unsuccessful neither appraises their consequences nor bears close examination.” Arthur claimed that since the United States didn’t “force” the blockade off of them and that it caused a net income loss that they would lose – and ergo “lost” the war.
    Lambert and Arthur are in a minority view that the “British won the war.” I keep seeing the British repeat the “strong-arm” stance against the United States from a handful of loud British nationalists, but the British wanted out of this war and abandoned all demands (many of which were very desirable or arguably needed) and hit a net-negative when nearly all of their allies whom remained within the United States boarders were left to the wolves.
    You have not read Alan Taylor, Ian Toll, George Daughan, Ronald Drez, or any other historian? This would explain a lot. I am curious as to whom (in the US Naval War College) were the researchers at the time? Ironic Luck (talk) 02:16, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    American "special operation" slant. Moxy- 00:59, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It's extremely convenient that Anglo-Canadian historians are "nationalists" in the minority view for suggesting a war that left the US financially exhausted and with no concessions without short-changing Britain's war effort in Europe was a success for London... while American-based historians who advance the blatantly nationalistic "plucky, fledgling country standing up to the nasty Empire" view are not? The fact that America was left vulnerable by her inadequately sized navy and run ragged by British naval might is an argument that dates back to Roosevelt and Mahan, and the navalist party in late 19th century America. You know, those notorious British "nationalists" Mahan and Roosevelt? Or, that the US didn't go "toe to toe" with Britain considering the latter's major entanglements in Europe at the time (without which Madison wouldn't have led the nation into the conflict in the first place?)
    "The British were forced to compromise with a fledgling nation" - In what way? Certainly not over the maritime issues which were the at the very centre of the conflict between the two countries.
    "Madison was informed that the British stopped impressing sailors and dropped the demand. Why did he need to “spike the football” and demand the British place it in writing when they (in practice) were not doing this? The United States did not need to force concessions because the British actively avoided impressing American sailors in the post-War of 1812 era and during the Hundred Days War. The fact that this is lost on you is concerning . . .
    Territory claimed. Impressment ended. Should the Americans claim victory?"
    None of this is true. This is either disingenuous on your part or plain ignorance. Albert Gallatin informed the US Government in mid-1814 that;
    'America cannot by a continuance of the war compel Great Britain to yield any of the maritime points in dispute, and particularly to agree to any satisfactory agreement on the subject of impressment...the most favourable terms that can be expected [that is, despite the US starting the war] are the status ante bellum'
    The United States was forced to drop all its demands over impressment and maritime belligerent rights at the outset of negotiations because...
    A) The British would simply refuse to negotiate over the issue, and
    B) Because the US had no bargaining chips with which to make demands as alluded to in Gallatin's letter [e.g military failure in the Canadas, running out of credit and cash to wage war due to the blockade etc].
    The hiatus in the Napoleonic Wars did not render Britain's future right to these issues any less important. The reason no one was impressed after 1814 was the same reason Britain stopped interfering with neutral trade (not just American trade) - the Napoleonic Wars were over. The Hundred Days did not see a major economic blockade of mainland Europe by the Royal Navy, meaning pre-1814 maritime restrictions were not necessary. Therein lies the end of impressment: the defeat of Napoleon's France, which was also its root cause. To imply it was American belligerence that ended it is post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.
    In 1815 John Quincy Adams told Lord Castlereagh that Madison had recommended the exclusion of "non-native" sailors from the American merchant marine, a friendly gesture to help American trade avoid falling foul of British impressment laws. Evidently, America felt vulnerable to the unchanged system of trade regulation & impressment that continued to exist after Ghent. The claim the War of 1812 obtained any de facto or du jure concession on impressment is rubbish.
    "I see the British tried to salvage from embarrassments that hurt their reputation due to the early American naval successes in the war, but the British left the War of 1812 as a humiliated nation. The British publications of that era did not rejoice in celebration as the United States did."
    A smattering of America frigate victories against weaker opponents in 1812 (the nature of which the American press glossed over or outright lied about at the time) did not change the overall picture at sea, which was one of overwhelming British superiority. When British reinforcements arrived, the US Navy spent most of the war blockaded in port. Single ship actions were mainly contests for national honour and from the American side yielded no clear strategic benefit (as American naval messiah Alfred Mahan will also tell you). They did not assist a favourable outcome to the war save in terms of propaganda. The British also had the brilliant Shannon-Chesapeake action and the capture of the "super frigate" USS President to their laurels. So what? The deciding matter was maritime superiority, and the British demonstrated this when they crippled the US through economic blockade. British publications did welcome the peace, as did Lord Liverpool himself. The only deflated publications were hawkish ones such as Times and Morning Post. Not because Britain "lost" but because they thought America was let off too lightly by the peace.
    "The Royal Navy failed in the early half of the war on the Atlantic Ocean..." No, it didn't. The RN detained the USN in port, instituted a devastating economic blockade which exhausted America's ability to wage war and could conduct amphibious operations along the coast almost at will. This was a cost-effective way to victory. It is utter nonsense to say the RN failed in its Atlantic campaign.
    " Lake Erie or Champlain were certainly not British successes." American control of Lake Erie, negated as it was by British control of Huron and eventual dominance in the arms race on Ontario, did not translate into any serious inroads into Canada - the only way America could obtain a favourable outcome to the war.
    "Arthur claimed that since the United States didn’t “force” the blockade off of them and that it caused a net income loss that they would lose – and ergo “lost” the war." Arthur's argument is that maritime economic warfare of the kind used against French-controlled Europe exhausted the USA's ability to wage war, denied her bargaining chips, and forced her to drop her demands over maritime rights or threaten Canada. He comprehensively refuted Dudley's claim the blockade was ineffective. His book has been lauded on both sides of the Atlantic.
    "The British failed to contain the American “challenge” by land as they still held territory by the end and only relinquished it when the glorified cease-fire at Ghent commenced. Dudley’s Raid..."
    Despite Canada being defended by a smattering of regulars, militia and Native warriors, two years of war had left the Americans with nothing to show for it save a toehold around Amhertsburg on the Detroit frontier. The British occupied Mackinac Island, large chunks of the old North West (Praire du Chein), forts on the American side of the Niagara Frontier and parts of Maine. The notion the British didn't utterly defeat the American land campaign- punctuated by battles such as Queenston Heights, Chateauguay, Chrysler's Farm and Lundy's Lane (strategic victory)- is nonsense. It's a position literally any half decent scholar would find mystifying.
    "Hickey in that the peace was won (something you forget) as the British were forced to pay for compensation for the losses of the free slaves" Ummm. Hickey's view, in print and spoken word, is that the war was a military and political failure for the US (particularly regards impressment) and a defeat. We cannot pretend that the British compensating American slave owners, or the defeat of Native Confederacies which were beating beaten before the war with Britain, is a fig leaf to hide behind. F.M. Sir D.H (talk) 15:04, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    The War of 1812 was a favorable outcome. It led to the "Era of Good Feelings" and unified the nation. Personally, I think a “draw” or even “inconclusive” is a fair assessment. And you never answer whom (in the US Naval War College) were the researchers at the time? It’s a bold and strange claim to throw the institution out there but not cite a name (or names) behind the research. It’s clear that British "historians" from the same think-tank (Lambert, Arthur) would rather wave the Union Jack than accept their own shortcomings. You've created multiple straw man fallacies to create your own argument and demonstrated hypocrisy on of it.

    Impressment was kept on paper but ended in practice. The British avoided impressment as it was made clear that they did not wish to resume war. The only plausible chance of this was during the Hundred Days War and they never risked resuming war with the United States. Not to mention:

    - Avoidance of the separate treaty over the legality of the Louisiana Purchase. There was even territory claimed by the United States from Spain. (The Surprising Strategic Consequences of the War of 1812 by Walter McDougall @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooUrBTRxl0o )
    - Indian buffer state was clearly dropped and risked the end to negotiations if this hadn't been done.
    - New Ireland was totally abandoned and many of the Federalists whom associated with the British were treated with shame for their involvement.

    The vote to annex the Canadas never passed and had Florida at the title of discussion. It's even more telling in the following Seminole Wars when Jackson was willing to incite war with the British when he attacked the Colonial Marines (in Spanish Florida) and later executed two British citizens. The United States was still engaging in provocative actions for a (supposedly) “defeated” nation, despite Lambert’s and Arthur’s claims.

    The Canadas were still under potential threat until the peace agreement was signed and ratified. Ships were still being built in preparation for further conflict (U.S.S. New Orleans and U.S.S. Chippawa) until the treaty was signed and ratified. It was from Admiral Sir David Milne (to a correspondent in 1817) that wrote, "we cannot keep Canada if the Americans declare war against us again"

    You're completely engulfed in the Union Jack waving nonsense . . . I am aware that the reason the British stopped impressment was due to the initial defeat of Napoleon. I mentioned this about Napoleon in the past archives and the British never resumed this practice, but you continue to create a multitude of excuses as to why. My entire point was that it never resumed once the treaty was ratified and that the British refused to take risk in instigating a war with the United States over the maritime issue.

    Madison dropped the demand of impressment when he was informed that the British were no longer acting on this practice. There was no need to fight over a maritime issue that resolved itself and could lead to a compromise. And unless you believe the United States would annex Canada (which it voted twice against doing so), this was a positive outcome for all parties involved, especially if the British were concerned of another war.

    I've written this in the past archives, but I'll repeat here that this was a case of what was signed on paper (Hickey) versus what happened in actions (Daughan). The actions of the British demonstrated that they could not hold onto any of their gains without risk of significant loss. The British still suffered losses, some short-term but more long-term, with the chosen outcome of a compromise.

    The British forfeited “Uti possidetis” for “Status quo ante bellum” because they hadn’t cleared their own territory. I would safely presume you’re aware of Wellington’s response to Lord Liverpool. They weren’t even capable in keeping the gains for themselves or their (supposed) allies in this conflict. The United States were the only party to actually claim territory in this war.

    Arthur's opinion is in the significant minority. He had problems with Dudley's point system and Arthur didn't research enough on the land campaign compared to Alan Taylor. Arthur cites from a Federalist complaint about the bankruptcy that you brought up, but never detailed Massachusetts exceptionalism (which is partially behind the political divide) or the vandalism caused by Federalists thugs onto the Jeffersonians. I don’t even remember if he specified the exact name of the Federalist who made this claim. Arthur claims the blockade led to bankruptcy for the United States on pg.186, “By this time, however, the government has reached the point of actual bankruptcy,” which was disputed between RJensen and Coppit in earlier archives. Federalists (at state level) declared bankruptcy, but the Federal court did not make a proclamation of "insolvency." The Federalists' tactics to delay payments was grossly overlooked by Arthur. Arthur grudgingly admits that the British couldn't financially afford to help the Federalists with their secession movement (pg. 201), “However, had the Ghent treaty not been ratified it seems doubtful whether Britain would have been able to sponsor the separation of New England from the Union,” which also means New Ireland would have eventually failed according to Arthur.

    Arthur failed to make a pressing argument that the United States lost the war as the damage was much more self-inflicted by Jefferson's incompetence than the British blockade. Some of the claims in Arthur’s book start with “if” and “should have been” opinions instead of concrete facts. Arthur treats Lambert’s word as as gospel and has only written this one book as a historian. The United States only needed shipments as a profit center (check Tirronan's post). Meanwhile, the United States permanently claimed territory from British allies (which the the British failed to prevent) and still kept the Canadas fearful in the coming years.

    My point was that once ratification was set forth (February 1815) and the war was over, the British were forced to respect the United States on impressing American citizens when no respect existed prior to engaging in this war. The early half of the war was embarrassing for the British, even in the Atlantic. The Americans held no real Navy and won multiple single-duel ship engagements with a much larger military power. That was my entire point, but you got offended over the fact that the British weren't as dominate on the ocean (or at sea) as you perceive. The America press capitalized on the successes on the ocean. The British press were not optimistic about the outcome . . . The Dublin Evening Post (citation from Ronald Drez) wrote:

    “The American War has closed with unmitigated dishonor for England.”

    The Edinburgh Review wrote (citation from George Daughan),

    “the British government had embarked on a war of conquest, after the American government had dropped its maritime demands, and the British had lost. It was folly to attempt to invade and conquer the United States. To do so would result in the same tragedy as the first war against them, and with the same result.”

    You’ve misinterpreted my initial response to discuss the fact that the British had . . . more ships in the ocean? Thanks, I am aware. I said the British embarrassed themselves in the early half, but I never claimed that the British didn't make up for some of the embarrassment. The blockade was strong on the eastern coast, but (accordingly to Dudley on pg.183) never approached a span portrayed by Mahan. “In truth, by the measures of that day it is proved less than fully effective when compared to the blockades of France, and it certainly placed Britain in a more precarious seat at Ghents bargaining table than the chair that country enjoyed in Paris and, later at Vienna.” It would have also proved expensive to maintain that blockade and the British were very war-weary themselves from Napoleonic France. That being said, the United States continued to fight well into 1815. The United States even won naval battles when the war was over. You're totally incapable of giving credit to any American success, but it is not surprising.

    Hickey has noted that the argument is debatable. I made mention of this before, but Hickey's opinion is still in the minority in that it was an American defeat. Donald Hickey on the "200 Years of American War" (in 2021) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmPrmglyYho) mentions this, but the video was VERY recently set to “private” sometime after you made your response. Personally, I find the timing of this rather curious . . . And there is no pretending, Hickey's opinion is that the Americans lost the war but the British lost the peace. No self-respecting historian would claim that the British “never paid for the slaves” like Lambert. The British certainly didn't benefit from third party arbitration from Russia. The Native tribes were still in conflict with the United States in the War of 1812 and (despite your claims) Tecumseh' Confederacy and the Red Stick Creeks were defeated during the war effort.

    The British embarrassed themselves with the Guerriere, Java, and various other single-ship duels that allowed the American press to focus ON those battles in the Atlantic. When everyone was shocked that the British were losing battles on the ocean, it is an embarrassment. It does not mean "toe to toe" as there was a clear power imbalance between the two nations. On page 107 (Dudley), “Wellington had developed a low opinion of the Admiralty by the end of 1813, and he certainly knew the cause of his problem: an unblockaded United States and the horde of privateers harrying his supply line.” The British knew to address this in the latter half of the war. And there is no “negating” American success at Lake Erie as it was in American control til the end of the war. There was a clear American resistance against the British offensive and was ongoing into mid-1815 due to slow communication. The United States maintained resistance and even captured the Cyane in February of 1815. The British should have easily captured the USS Constitution if they were as dominating in naval waters as you've claimed . . .

    What historians have you read? I noticed you never disputed that you didn't read the historians "Alan Taylor, Ian Toll, George Daughan, Ronald Drez, or any other historian" of whom I listed as examples? Again, it would explain a lot. Ironic Luck (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 12:04, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]


    References

    1. ^ https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/lion/english/e_eye

    Pot, meet kettle, Moxy.

    The Canadian (and perhaps the Commonwealth) popular perception is slanted. The last time I saw you was in Archive 26 and you refrained from further commentary when asked for clarification from Tirronan and David Kinge. You’ve previously cited from Jim Guy, a professor of political science (not a historian) and based your opinion on his column in a Cape Brenton piece which failed to meet reliable research.

    I can personally cite from more authors than what I’ve listed on Wikipedia, plus I can cite from online lectures that question the “British victory” myth. There was too much internal conflict within the United States to ever annex the Canadas. Hickey was right when he said that this was the most divisive war in the United States history and begrudgingly admitted (in a lecture a few years ago) that his argument can be flipped on it’s head for an American victory. He doesn’t agree with the “American victory” perspective, but he acknowledges that other historians have this viewpoint.

    You’ve demonstrated hypocritical behavior; present reliable sources and I’ll continue to do the same. Thanks. Ironic Luck (talk) 14:26, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    It's too bad or academic editors have given up on the article [1]. Its also to bad Hickey did not have access to Canadian and British publications in the late 80s [2].Moxy- 20:04, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Hickey is only one example, Moxy. The British sources still wave the Union Jack. David Mills's book is a good read when dealing with the Canadian perspective; many modern myths are still promoted by Canadian jingoism. Ironic Luck (talk)
    • Comment The OP has essentially made a drive-by comment but not otherwise contributed to the discussion. Wiki articles should be written in a way that is detached from the subject (at arms-length) and which does not appear to be partisan in a Wiki voice. Partisan views should be attributed and given due weight. Where this might be better done has not been evidenced, so there is little to glean from the OP. The discussion has then digressed to a question of the result in the infobox. It is quite clear from the article and the sources taken as a whole, there was no conclusive result - everybody got a bloody nose but made their point. There is no consensus in sources by which one might reasonably assert one side was conclusively the victor. The result was inconclusive. The body of the article quite clearly supports this. The present result of "inconclusive" is quite appropriate. If there is a substantial change in the consensus of sources, the body of the article should be changed to reflect this. Only then, would it be appropriate to revisit the question of the result parameter. Since this discussion is focussed on the parameter and not the body of the article, I don't see that it is going anywhere productive. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:23, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      This, understandably, has been hashed out for many years, with extensive citations on all sides, to reach the current inconclusive/status quo ante bellum result in the InfoBox. See for example (as the head of this page once suggested), /Archive 8, /Archive 9, /Who Won?, Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-11-11/War of 1812 and /Archive 14 —— Shakescene (talk) 18:51, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    If anyone's interested, there is a book called The Idea of Loyalty in Upper Canada, 1784-1850 (David MIlls, McGill-Queen's University Press 1988) that explains how the provincial government interpreted the war as a victory by loyal militia. The main target of the idea was the new emigrants who had served in the Napoleonic wars and settled in Upper Canada. While it had a unifying effect, it relied on a distortion of actual history. OTOH, even though school history books long abandoned this view, it remains part of popular folklore. TFD (talk) 19:01, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Rockets Red Glare

    It is a common misconception that the British bombardment illuminated the flag flying over Ft. McHenry. What Key was actually referring to was the fact that the bombardment continued "gave proof" that the flag was still there because if the Fort fell the bombardment would stop. It was the continuation of the bombardment, not a visible flag, that reassured him the flag was still there. It was only at daylight, when the bombardment stopped that he was unsure if the fort had finally fallen. Then the large garrison flag, the star spangled banner, was raised, proving the fort had survived. The smaller storm flag flown during the night battle would not have been visible to the fleet, rockets or not. 2600:4040:A538:B100:9038:D83F:E427:1D85 (talk) 20:13, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Change the results part

    Instead of “inconclusive” why not “Britain successfully defends its Northern American colony” and “treaty of Ghent” or maybe “ status quo ante bellum “ John67373 (talk) 03:08, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Status quo ante bellum and Treaty of Ghent used to be part of are in the Results line, and I think they should be still remain there, since there were no significant territorial, material, military or political gains for any side (although the Indian tribes were clear losers)."Inconclusive" by itself (though I think it is still accurate and should also appear) might suggest that some other conclusion had been reached later, whereas the status quo has lasted for over two centuries.
    But the War over the Infobox has already lasted three or four times as long as the War of 1812 itself. Cogent arguments have been made that the Canadians won (by averting American invasion), that the Americans won (by preventing a reassertion of British dominance), that both sides won, and that nobody won. {A minority view was argued by one editor for over a decade that Britain was the victor.) See above on this page and in these Archives: #/Archive 8, #/Archive 9, #/Archive 14, #/Who Won? and Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-11-11/War of 1812 —— Shakescene (talk) 05:28, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Please see MOS:MIL. Cinderella157 (talk) 06:08, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Quelle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3ADiff%2F1150493596