Spain Unassessed

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An event mentioned in this article is a September 11 selected anniversary.

Older talk is archived at:

• Talk:Catalonia/Archive 1
• Talk:Catalonia/Archive 2

As usual, these more recent postings betray hidden nationalist agendas.

The parallels between the development of the modern nations of Britain and Spain are actually rather apt in various ways. Both are "united" kingdoms, spurred into (arguably reluctant) historical unity by the most dominant component country/culture at the material time (England in Britain; Castile in Spain). The new "united" countries took a new name, in each case with origins in the Latin names for territorial designations under the Roman Empire: Britannia and Hispania. They also gave rise to new nationalities: British and Spanish. In neither case were the other component countries in the new kingdom simply absorbed or subsumed into the identity of the dominant country which instigated the union. Scotland did not become part of England, any more than Aragaon (or Catalonia) became part of Castile.

As a bit of pedantry, Cornwall is a part of England, isn't it? --Error 01:07, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thus, I can quite see how a Catalan, Galician or Basque might take exception to being called a "Castilian", but all are equally "Spanish". A Castilian is no more (or less) "Spanish" than a Catalan, Asturian or Andalusian.

By the same token, Scotsmen and Welshmen naturally resent being referred to as "Englishmen". Ironically, this often happens in Spain (and elsewhere in Europe), where it is habitual in common parlance to refer to Inglaterra or los ingleses when the intended reference is actually to the UK or to the British. Dare I say that I have even seen this usage in Catalan! However since England, Scotland and Wales are all part of the UK, nobody from Scotland or Wales (except possibly the most rabid separatist) would conceivably take issue with the description "British" to refer to an inhabitant/citizen of the "nation" as a whole. A Scotsman or Welshman is no less "British" than an Englishman.

Until the creation of the Irish Free State in 1922, the inhabitants of the 26 "southern" Irish counties (which now form the Republic of Ireland) were part of the UK and thus "British" as matter of legal and political reality. However, this did not make them any less Irish: it just meant that they were "British" (rather than English) as well. If Northern Ireland ever leaves the UK to form part of a "united" Irish state, then its inhabitants will in the same way also cease to be "British": for the present, however, they are both Irish (albeit not citizens of the Republic of Ireland) and British (as citizens of the UK). Indeed, they are no less "Irish" because of it, just as the Basques who are French citizens are no less "Basque" than their counterparts who are Spanish citizens in the Basque Automonous Community within Spain.

Should the day ever come where the four Catalan provinces of Spain secede to form an independent state, then their inhabitants will doubtless cease to be "Spanish". Doubtless the citizens of the Rousillon will cease to be "French" should they choose (or be allowed) to join such a polity. Until then, can we please confine a factual article about the "Catalan Autonomous Community" to one which accords with present-day realities rather than the aspirational wish-fulfilment of some contributors.

Finally, the fact that Catalan is "official" (co-official, in fact) in Catalonia is a feeble answer to what is plainly a politically-motivated desire (by the same handful of editors) to relegate the "national" language of Spanish below the "regional" language of Catalan. The persistent attempt to dilute the status of Spanish by seeking to elevate the importance of the Aranese dialect (which has no co-official status, or any official status outside the Vale of Aran itself) completely gives the game away.

Likewise, manifestly contentious comments about the historic assertion of Catalan "national" identity have no place in a factual introduction. As anyone (not least contributors to this page) following the current controversy over the draft Estatut cannot fail to appreciate, the use of words such as "nation" and "nationality" are highly-charged and sensitive in the present political context. No doubt this is why some contributors are so determined to plant this particular flag in the introduction at all costs.

Please can we avoid polluting this admirable global project with trite partisan point-scoring. Otherwise, I fear that this page will end up like its Spanish-language counterpart: a useless information resource, bereft of credibility and fatally compromised by sectarian propaganda.

An Englishman

(A no less "anonymous" signature than the "names" chosen by other contributors, which are meaningless to anyone but them.)

Hello Englishman, I can understand your point of view, because we humans normally tend to understand new experiences according to our previous knowledge. It makes sense you try to draw similarities between United Kingdom and Kingdom of Spain. Personally, I do not feel able to talk about Scotland because I do not know Scottish situation enough to make any kind of judgment about this kind of national issues.

I'm Catalonian, and I'm used the political-national discussions regarding Catalonia. They are more frequent than you may even imagine in my country and I share friendship and kinship with people who may be regarded as either Catalan or Spanish nationalists. There are different ways of being Catalan or Spanish nationalists, and in some circumstances differences may be blur, specially since these denominations are used as a political weapons. They are both important ideas who would deserve a decent an article of their own.

As you have pointed at, and I did previously as well, Spain was formerly a geographic denomination to what is the Iberian Peninsula. As time happened it started to refer to a political entity which is current Kingdom of Spain, and which does not include politically or administratively-speaking Portugal or Andorra.

If we understand the historical ideas behind nation-state, Spain has come to acquire, in a cultural and political sense, mainly the Castile legacy (Castilian nationalist, moooore minoritary than Catalan ones consider this is a kind of cultural/historical robbery). The War of Spanish succession and different dictorships must also be considered in this historic-political evolution of Spain=Castile(+formerly Castile-annexed territories).

Nowadays, Spain or Spanish terms, apart from the purely concept of official citizenship, may be ambiguous terms in certain circumstances, not only from Catalan, Basque, erc. but also even in typically 'Castilian territories', and this is not only from militant non-Spanish nationalists.

One usual statement from some Spanish nationalist is regarding that they should not be regarded as nationalists. It makes no sense because Spanish nationalism it is not a kind of immutable dogma as it is not Catalan one. Surely, if there were not considerably strong counter-opposing nationalisms, this would make no sense, because it would be regarded as 'obvious' according to nation-state principles.

The whole point is that you seem to consider that Catalan culture, nationalism, or whatever is a kind of minoritary, radical. mindless attitude of some kind of possible Balkanic-like genocides like me. That's not true, as it is not true for Spanish one.

I suggest you to take a cheap flight from England and visit Catalonia (if you have not done before, or if you have done, do it again), read Catalonian media (you have plenty in Internet) from all the different point of views and know different Catalonian people. There is even a Wikipedia in Catalan language which is going to reach 20.000 articles soon!

I am schocked with your reaction against Aranese, I think it is a positive thing to reflect it as it happens in Switzerland entry. I see you do not value this kind of things. I tried to unblock current edition war infobox and I lament this kind of disproportionate reaction from yours... I may have erred with a proper order, for this reason, I asked other Wikipedians about their opinions.

Catalan toponyms (and Aranese ones in Val d'Aran) are the official and usual ones even speaking Spanish.

One point that I agree, is that the removed sentence about national identity should be better placed in a proper context in the political section.

Well, that's enough text for today :), I am going to change current order to what has been discussed before. Please comment, if you consider, in previous section.

Best regards Toniher 20:22, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please, Englishman: You are right in many aspects, but regarding languages: both Spanish and Catalan are co-official in Catalonia (according to Spanish Law). "Co-"official simply means they are both official. The situation is not, as you are implying, that Spanish is official and Catalan is co-official. The legal situation is: Spanish is official, Catalan is official. No language is "more official" than the other. however, in practice, in Catalonia, Catalan is much more used in official dealings (parliament, government, etc.). In the street, both languages are used. In this particular aspect, Spain is not comparable to British situation (where English is, although not official in the Spanish sense, the primary language in the whole of Britain). Marco Neves 03:27, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Englishman said Catalan is co-official, period. Your implication are only in your head.

--Catón 20:00, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Englishman said: "Finally, the fact that Catalan is "official" (co-official, in fact) in Catalonia is a feeble answer to what is plainly a politically-motivated desire (by the same handful of editors) to relegate the "national" language of Spanish below the "regional" language of Catalan." When he says "co-official, in fact" he is implying that there is a diference between the official and the co-official status, when such difference does not exist. And I really think, reading the following words ("national" vs. "regional" language), that he is implying Spanish is official and Catalan co-official. But even if I was wrong interpreting Englishman's words, please, read my own words as a clarification about the whole subject: both Catalan and Spanish are official (and, thus, co-official) in Catalonia, with no different status or importance (officially speaking of course, in society at large, the situation is much more complex). Hope I made myself clear. :) Marco Neves 02:01, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

For the suspicious among you, by "co-official" I meant no more than "equally" official. In other words, Spanish is no more or less official than Catalan, and Catalan is no more or less official than Spanish. That is the indisputable legal position at the present time. Equally indisputable is that Aranese has no co-official status in this sense, and indeed no official status outside the Vale of Aran itself.

The issue that that nobody has addressed is why in a factual article about what is presently a region of Spain, the "regional" language should take precedence over the "national" language. This is simply a matter of accepting the present reality, however unpalatable many Catalans (or Catalanists) may find it.

To answer the more personal imputations, I have spent many happy summers in Catalonia over the years, as well as in other regions of Spain. I am also well aware that Spanish nationalism, no less than Catalan nationalism, has its ugly, extreme and intolerant side. I believe it was Samuel Johnson (or possibly Oscar Wilde) who said that a patriot is a man who loves his country, whereas a nationalist is a man who hates everybody else's country. Speaking for myself, I find any form of nationalism which relies on the denigration of neighbouring peoples or cultures utterly repulsive. That goes for Spanish nationalists who denigrate the historic "nationalities" of Spain, as well as for Catalan nationalists who scorn the very idea that a Spanish identity can co-exist with a Catalan one. Dare I say that it also applies to that minority of Portuguese Spain-haters who are still stuck in the mindset of 1640.

I am well aware that some Catalans (in common with some Basques and Galicians) regard any form of identification with Spain or a common Spanish identity as some form of subjugation to a historic Castilian supremacism. While these arguments are all doubtless quite fascinating, my simple point is that they have no place here and should not infect this article.

An Englishman

It's a pleasure start talking more calmly. Well, let's center on the infobox. Please, just notice that even in Spanish wikipedia Catalan name is precedent! And it's the same in most of Wikipedia versions. We may speak if Aranese should be there if it is only official in a part of Catalonia. I do think it deserves being there, and being the third one is a sensible option. I change again ;) Toniher 16:07, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Englishman: I agree with you regarding the division of patriotism and nationalism. Being Portuguese, I have fought for many years against those Portuguese nationalists who think we are still fighting Castilians or that Spain wants to take back Portugal (which is ludicrous). I love to visit Spain and talk about it(I'm kind of a Spanish-related-issues freak among my friends). But I also think that Spanish and Portuguese people can be patriots without being nationalists. However, because of a little and subtle subversion of the word, any Catalan who identifies himself with Catalonia above Spain (which is a legitimate feeling) is labelled "nationalist". He can even love Spain, but to be Catalanist means, in Spain, to be nationalist. And so, people tend to think all Catalan "nationalists" are Spain-haters and narrow-minded, etc. (And, yes, I know there are lots of Spanish-haters in Catalonia, but mainstream Catalan "nationalism" is not like that, it is much closer to our definition of patriotism. Many so-called Catalan nationalists don't hate Spain and would be called patriots in any other situation.) By contrast, any Spaniard can easily abhor the very idea of Catalonia, etc. and calmly declare he is no nationalist. In my opinion, nationalism is in the eye of the beholder. But, let's move forward. I think in this case (as in the case of Québec, Aland Islands, etc.) the "regional" language is more used when speaking of the name of the region. Legally speaking, Catalan toponomy is the only one official throughtout the region (and, in some instances, in Balearic Islands): this is different from Basque Country, etc. So, an official document of the Basque Country can choose to use Vitoria OR Gazteiz, but, in Catalonia, Lérida is not officially used (only Lleida). (One bizarre fact not directly related to the question: The official name of the Balearic Islands in Catalan and in Spanish is Illes Balears. I realy think the Balearic Islands should use both names, but the fact is they use the Catalan one even in documents written in Spanish.)

From memory, the official form in any language is Vitoria-Gasteiz. In common life, Vitoria (or even Gasteiz) are used in Spanish and Gasteiz (very rarely Bitorixa) in Basque. --Error 01:23, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In a nutshell, in Catalonia (and Balearic Islands), the "regional" name has legal precedence. This is not because I'm a "hidden" Catalan nationalist. And this does not change the fact that both Catalan and Spanish are official in Catalonia (in fact, I think the toponomy issue may be inconstitutional; but, for now, the Spanish law makes Catalan the only language that can be used in Catalonia regarding Catalan toponomy). Best regards, Marco Neves 19:00, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

To say that Spanish Wikipedia gives precedence to the Catalan name is disingenuous in the extreme. As I have commented before, the parallel page in Spanish Wikipedia has been blocked as the result of constant editing wars between Catalan "nationalists" and Spanish "unionists". It seems some people wish to achieve the same result here; namely, to sacrifice the article's credibility by making it a propaganda sheet for Catalan-language supremacy. Indulge in this somewhere else: God only knows there are plenty of other fora on the WWW.

A user of English Wikipedia should be left in no doubt, after consulting this article, that Catalonia is presently an autonomous region of Spain. Since any rational person would expect the "national" name to take precedence over the "regional" one, this should be reflected in the article. If or when Catalonia becomes an independent state with Catalan as the preferential language, I will be the first to advocate a change in the article to reflect the new status quo. However, until such time, please spare us this puerile point-scoring.

I have said all that needs to be said about Aranese. I see no reason why English Wikipedia should bestow on this mountain-dialect of Occitan/Gascon a status which even the Generalitat's website does not feel it necessary to accord.

That is true, Catalonia in spanish wikipedia is the perfect example of a spanish unionist article, biased and the worst, blocked. <-- --Completely agree with that point from an anonymous.GillesV 20:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC) An Englishman[reply]

Dear Englishman: I'm perfectly rational, no Catalan nationalist and I'm not engaging in any point-scoring. I'm just asking you to read my previous comment. It would be normal to present a national language first. But, in Catalonia, toponomy has one official language, according to Spanish law - Catalan. It is informative and accurate to present Catalan name first. In UK, national language has precedence in all accounts. In Spain, regional languages are more legally important than in UK. In the case of Catalan toponomy, Catalan has precedence. Do I agree with this? It doesn't matter. It's a fact. Catalonia does not need to become independent. The fact that Catalan is the language of Catalan toponomy has nothing to do with politics. It's a legal fact of Spain. Let's discuss this without engaging in ad hominem attacks (I'm rational, thank you very much :). Best regards, Marco Neves 23:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps I was merely unsuccessful in my search, but is there a page/section on Wikipedia dealing with Catalan emigrant communities (e.g. Puerto Rico or Cuba?) Thanks --Dpr 09:15, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for asking. There is a very dubious stub at Catalan people that could use a real contributor. Right now it makes the dubious claims that "Native speakers of Catalan have an overall majority among the most famous Spaniards" and claims Pablo Picasso as a Catalan (or, I guess, if you read closely enough, just as a native speaker of the Catalan language, which may be true, since I imagine he was dual native). Also, once someone turns that into a half-decent article, then Catalans should redirect there rather than here. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:42, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am glad we can agree on what most most people would consider "normal" and "rational", irrespective of the local position. If by "toponym" you mean "place name" (I think it better to avoid unidiomatic latinisms in English), I have no problem with the existing text inasmuch as the Spanish names for "Lleida" and "Girona" should appear in brackets after the "official" names in Catalan which now take precedence at a national level throughout Spain.

However, political designations are not place-names, so our Portuguese friend's analogy is inapt. Since the "national" Constitution still takes juridical precedence over any of the "regional" autonomy statutes, the political name of the region (the legitimacy of which derives exclusively from the Spanish Constitution) should continue to take precedence in the national language over the regional variant. This is what any "rational" and informed user of English Wikipedia would expect, regardless of the convulsions which exercise nationalists and unionists in Spain (to the detriment of Spanish Wikipedia).

Finally, and for the final time (so far as I am concerned), I will reiterate that Aranese has no official status outside the Val d'Aran itself. Accordingly, it is inappropriate to attempt to accord this dialect any co-official status with either Catalan or Spanish . I notice that one of the more avid habitual Catalanist editors has yet again sought to disparage the official Spanish name for the autonomous community by placing it in a smaller-font italics alongside Aranese. It is difficult to believe that such persistence is neutral and uninfected by point-scoring nationalist bias.

An Englishman (bored with parochial pettiness)

P.S. Can you please take the trouble to observe the convention of entering any reponses as separate entries (rather than merely "editing" mine).

Unless I'm very mistaken, a toponym is the adjectival form of a placename. While "toponym" is a bit Latinate, "adjectival form of placename" is really clumsy, and adjectival is just as Latinate as toponym. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:09, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Englishman:

I didn’t know the convention about opening a new topic for every single answer. And I really think it makes the table of contents irrelevant and the whole page unorganised. But I will respect your option.

Sorry for the Latinism, but the fact is toponym is an English word — I’ve checked an English dictionary — just like “parochialism”, which is also a Latinism.

Regarding place names, I accept that my example was confusing. Now, let’s concentrate on the “political names” argument.

You mention Spanish Constitution, which has precedence over Autonomy Statutes. You’re right: it has precedence. But Spanish Constitution says that ‘’castellano’’ is official throughout Spain and the other Spanish languages (‘’otras lenguas españolas’’) are official in their own regions. It says nothing about precedence in each one of the regions. (Don’t extrapolate saying that “national” language has obvious precedence: in Spain, nothing of this kind is ever obvious, even if, for an Englishman, it should be.) Catalan Autonomy Statute, which is a Spanish National Law called “ley orgánica”, with quasi-constitutional value and superior to ordinary Spanish law), calls Catalan “proper”. Do I agree with this? I would be more comfortable with complete equality, but that’s what the (Spanish) Law says. This adjective (‘proper’) has little impact on reality, besides giving Catalan a sort of “ceremonial” precedence. So, in a nutshell, in Catalonia, both political names are official, but the Catalan name has a sort of “ceremonial” precedence, since is in the language the Spanish Law calls “proper” to Catalonia (in no other place can we infer any kind of precedence between both languages, regarding Catalonia).

Now, if, despite these legal technicalities, Spanish were the most-used language in Catalonia, I would be most happy to use Spanish first, for the sake of accuracy. But, in Catalan political circles (the street is another matter), Catalan is used almost exclusively (even PP representatives — the only national party present in Catalonia, which completely against any kind of Catalan nationalism — speak in Catalan when in the Catalan parliament). So, legal arguments and political arguments are in favour of giving a ‘’certain’’ precedence to Catalan regarding political names in Catalonia (the recent change reducing the size of the Spanish name was, I completely agree, silly and an example of not-quite-so-subliminal nationalism).

Englishmen should expect accuracy in Wikipedia, not confirmation of all general suppositions they previously held. Let’s try a “mental experiment” (like Einstein): suppose all Englishmen thought Algarve was a Portuguese autonomous region (which is something any reasonable person in England could think): should I, as a Portuguese, let that wrong piece of information stand? So, the fact that reasonable people in England think something is right does not make it automatically right (nor wrong, for that matter). Please, note that the strength of Wikipedia is that people who like and understand each and every topic input their specific knowledge in order to build a common knowledge repository to the benefit of all. And, please, don’t accuse other people of parochialism and, at the same time, imply that Wikipedia in English is “property” of native English-speaking people (you always speak about the expectations of English users): it belongs to everyone that are able to contribute, just like every other Wikipedia. The fact that so many Catalans (and Spaniards in general) contribute makes these articles much more worthy of Englishmen’s attention, since they can give “inside” information, so to speak (these articles become also prone to political discussions, but this is not the case: we are speaking about a rather settled question).

Keep in mind that this is considered a non-question by a majority of contributors (or so I guess, since you’re the only one reverting something no one usually complains about) and since you are trying to implement a polemical change (which you have the right to do), you should present arguments and keep attacks aside. I would like to exchange ideas calmly and without ad hominem attacks. (By the way, don't try to convince me I have a subliminal nationalist agenda; I rather dislike nationalism and I love everything Spanish, including Catalonia.) Let’s keep accusations of pettiness and parochialism aside and focus on the arguments. Even if this is (and it sure is!) a petty question for most people.

Best regards,

Marco Neves 11:20, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, you previously said: "A user of English Wikipedia should be left in no doubt, after consulting this article, that Catalonia is presently an autonomous region of Spain." The fact that Catalan comes first does not imply (at least for me) that Catalonia is not an autonomous region of Spain. It is an autonomous region and will probably be one for many years to come. This has nothing to do with languages: a country can have different official languages and different status assigned to those languages in different parts of its national territory. I hope no one will infer political status from the order languages appear in the side table. But even if someone gets confused, the beginning of the article will clarify matters.

I did not say that "toponym" was not an English word, merely that it was an unidiomatic Latinism. Strictly speaking, in English usage a "toponym" is a place name derived from a topographical feature (e.g. "Tras-os-Montes"). A desire for accuracy is thus another reason why "place name" is preferable (as well as being better understood by virtue of using words in common use). By contrast, "parochial" is a word in everyday use, notwithstanding its Latin origins. In fact, the word originates from the Greek word paroikia (meaning 'temporary stay').

As a general rule, the more idiomatic English word is the (usually shorter) one with a Germanic root rather than the (usually longer) Latinate equivalent; e.g. "start" and "end" are idiomatic: "commence" and "terminate" are not (even though they are undoubtedly English words). While an understandable tendency among those whose mother tongue is a Romance language, the use of unidiomatic Latinate words in place of simpler and more idiomatic ones is apt to lessen rather than increase understanding.

As to the issue in hand, my position is simply to apply a criterion of common sense which would be universally understood by Wikipedia users with no axe to grind; namely, that the national takes precedence over the regional in this context. Neither the Spanish Consititution nor the present Autonomy Statute accords Catalan any form of precedence over Castilian, which is no doubt why our Portuguese friend, unable to point to any juridical basis in favour of Catalan's 'official' precedence, is driven to invoke the wholly novel concept of "ceremonial" precedence.

I am well aware that within Catalonia (and its public institutions in particular), Catalan is routinely given precedence over Castilian. However, since English-language Wikipedia is a global endeavour (rather than a publication by the Generalitat or some other Catalan institution), I see no reason why it should defer to local sensibilities which are neither universally shared nor accepted.

Finally, I do not recall making "ad hominem" (or personal) "attacks" on any particular contributor. My "attacks", if they can sensibly be so described, relate exclusively to the partisan point-scoring which clearly underpins a lot of the editing on this page. As far as I am concerned, it is neither here nor there that most of these edits appear to come from a handful of contributors whose chosen "identifiers" indicate names of Catalan origin. In short, my concern is with the content of the article and the integrity of the project (rather than with the political or cultural predilections of any particular contributor).

An Englishman

Hello Englishman. I have the impression we are having byzantine discussions here. I do not know what you understand by common sense, and it's better not to invoke it, because sometimes it might tend to be the less common of the senses. It does not matter the political, national or regional musings about, any person that lands Catalonia can easily check all what we are talking about. I could understand your position 30 or 40 years ago (during Francoist regime), but not know; I suppose you have visited Catalonia more recently, don't you? What I cannot understand is why Aranese presence is so offensive? I personally appreciate this kind of annotations, let's say in Switzerland, India, Scotland or any other places where there could be minoritary languages, even if they are not official (which is not the case for Aranese, which is currently official in Val d'Aran and might be in the whole territory in the future). Do you suggest that most English-speaking people do not want to know this kind of enriching things. I do not think so... Toniher 23:34, 16 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Englishman,

I would consider "parochialism" and "subliminal nationalistic agenda" as ad hominem attacks (since I don't consider myself to be parochial or a nationalist and I don't like being called that), but, once again, it's your opinion and I respect that. (And sorry to have said "parochialism" was a Latinate word. I was wrong. I mean it.)

I agree Wikipedia is global. That's why I didn't agree with your argument regarding what Englishmen would expect. The fact that Wikipedia is global (and not just for English native speakers) is where Wikipedia's strength lies.

I did not invent cerimonial precedence. "Proper" is the word used by the Statute. If the word has any meaning at all, it is that: cerimonial. That was what I was saying. And, in reality, Catalan does have de facto precedence: despite Catalonia having two languages, officially speaking the form "Catalunya" is used much more often that "Cataluña". Paraphrasing you, the national does not take precedence over the regional in this context. (This is not saying I agree with that fact. It's just that: a fact.) So, the order Spanish-Catalan is not accurate, is quite misleading and reinforces previous misconceptions many international users of Wikipedia have.

Well, I guess such a large discussion on such a petty subject is kind of time-consuming and, therefore, I will try to abstain myself for any further participation. However, I would advise Englishman to let "common-sense" aside and to accept that appearences, globally speaking, can be deceiving. National language precedence in Catalonia is exactly what a foreigner would expect and is exactly what he would learn, by experience, to be not true. That has nothing to do with my personal opinion on the subject.

Warm regards (once again, I mean it),

Your Portuguese friend (has you've called me) :) Marco Neves 01:19, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any particular reason to say that "the national" ("Englishman" appears to use nation only in the sense of sovereign state) "takes precedence over the regional" (which in this case appears to refer to any culture that does not have full state sovereignty). Certainly that is not simply "common sense". It is a politically charged view. The fact that it is dominant in many countries—or at least in the politically dominant regions of those countries—does not make it apolitical. In your own country, I imagine that plenty of the Scottish and Welsh, and certainly of the Northern Irish Catholics, would disagree with you on this point. I live in the U.S. The most obvious semi-autonomous quasi-national entities here are the Native American nations, or tribes, depending on who you are talking to. We have increasingly moved over the last generation or two towards calling them by their own names (e.g. Lakota, Inuit, Aleut, none of which were words in common use 50 years ago) rather than by their historic English-language names (Sioux, Eskimo). I don't think this is contrary to common sense. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:16, 19 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think the "Current political issues" should be updated with the censorship law that was voted in Catalonia and came into effect on Januray 3, 2006. Obviously, nationalists will immediately erase such an addition but at least the English-speaking world should be aware of the fact that the first and only European Union region to establish political censorship of the media is Catalonia.

It might surprise many people, but the most dangerous parts of the proposed new Catalan statutes are not the ones in relation with the national identity of Catalonia, but the ones establishing a Communist-like control of society and economy by the Generalitat. All major industries will be state-controlled and media (print, TV and electronic) will be subject to excruciating limitations. If the statutes are voted, Catlonia in 2010 will look more than Poland in the 1970's rather than a free-market, liberal country of the European Union. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.35.166.225 (talk • contribs) 9 Jan 2006.

Can you point at an account of this that you would consider to be from a reliable source? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:36, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This unsigning editor tries to spread biased information, ...with some funny assertions. Everybody interested in the project of new Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia (approved by 120 of the 135 deputies of the Parliament) can read an english version here: [ http://www.gencat.net/nouestatut/docs/estatut_english.pdf]. Our unsigning friend should think that all these deputies (representing around 90% of democratic votes) are crazy! --Joan sense nick 01:06, 11 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the unsigning editor is confusing two issues. First, censorship. The Catalan government has given sanctionary and quasi-judicial powers to a governmental entity known as the Consell de l'Audiovisual de Catalunya, or Catalonia Audiovisual Counicil, which is under the direct control of the Parliament of Catalonia. Its explicit mandate is to verify that what the audiovisual (television and radio) media in Catalonia say is "truthful". Sanctions such as fines and the revoking of transmission licenses are now within its capabilities. Of course, the issue here is not that such an organism exists, but that it attempts to define what is "truthful", and has teeth to make sure everybody stays in line. Moreover, it is scary since it's an political entity under government direction. COPE Radio in particular has grown weary of the possibilities this new law could open, and this has prompted nine journalists to write and sign a manifesto explaning in great detail their position against the CAC for the European Parliament to take action in what they see as the most flagrant attempt at official censorship in the Union's history. This manifesto has been signed as well by more than half a million people in Spain, with identification numbers, in what has become by far the largest petition ever in the history of the European Parliament (the largest one before only had 15,000 signers). It has been pointed out by some in the Spanish media that this manifesto has more signatures than Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya had votes in the last election (which were, by the way, their best results ever since the Transition), yet news of it are largely ignored inside Spain (let alone Catalonia!).

About the regulatory aspects of the proposed new Statute, it is plain to see in the link provided by Joan sense nick that it is highly regulatory of almost every conceivable aspect of life. I am scared since I've become enamored of Catalonia, and part of my love for her is that I still recognize it as the traditionally more liberal, freer, part of the Spanish Kingdom. As a Puerto Rican, I take great pride in my homeland's strong Catalan heritage (there's even a town here called "Barceloneta"; many people have Catalan surnames, sometimes even full Catalan names, yet they don't know, such as Eulalia or Laia; we drink cava and call it "cava"; we make Bacardí and Serrallés rums, the Casals Festival is here, and a long etc.).

I know it is solely the Catalan people's choice. But saying that the new Statute is hyper-regulatory is simply stating the obvious. The unsigned was too sensationalistic, but the fact remains that Catalans will lose personal and economic freedoms if this proposal, strictly as approved by the Catalan Parliament, ever turns into organic law.

Regards, User:Mankawabi 9:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Probably the new Staute proposal (it's a proposal!) is hyper-regulatory. I'm not an expert in law. Two reasons can explain this, in my opinion: 1) In order to have a great consensus the debate last some 18 months, with 4 political parties involved. 2) The current Statute have been often cut out by Spanish general laws since 1977, and the proposal tries to block its jurisdiction from future general laws cuts.

Mankawabi, I invite you to visit your old homeland. You will see that we enjoy the liberal way of life that once "enamored" you... Don't give much credit to some sensacionalistic media, or to radical nationalists (Spanish or Catalan). Come visit us, feel the (real) life in the streets: I'm sure that you come back again! Regards, --Joan sense nick 22:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I endorse Mankawabi's remarks, both about CAC and Statute.--Catón 16:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)--195.149.215.221 16:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I know Repùblica Popular is "People's Republic" in English, but I wonder whether this should be "People's Party" in English. I mean, it's a "populist" and hence centrist (perhaps center-right) party, while "people's party," suggests ... something different. "Popular Party" doesn't make much sense in English, but perhaps that's a good thing in this case (as it at least does have the odd connotations of "People's Party." "Populist Party" might be more on the mark, but it's really less a translation than an explanation. I mean, the "Partido Radical" in Argentina is usually given as the "Radical Party," as odd as that is in English (particularly when it's more like the Grassroots Party, that's the "radix" they're getting at). So I'm on .... Popular Party for the Partit Popular/Partido Popular. It's literal, perhaps too literal, but no more literal than so many other glosses of organizational names. Blondlieut 04:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that I would lean toward Populist Party. Popular in Spanish can mean either "popular" or "populist" in English. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:38, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I dunno. I agree with you regarding the translation of popular. However, for what it's worth, I would note that the Partido Popular Democratico in Puerto Rico is invariably translated as the Popular Democratic Party in English, even when they're out of power. Blondlieut 18:30, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Similar to my edits on the main Spain page, IMO, this name should only have the official name of Catalunya, which is the Catalan spelling. It is the SOLE official name of the region, although when writing in the Castilian language, you would write "Cataluña," just as you would in any language conforming the proper noun to your language. However, this is not such an instance.

And to say that the only official language of Catalonia is Catalan is plainly false. It is Catalan AND Spanish. This is not a POV, this is established fact.

Eboracum 01:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Catalonia has a rather rich anarchist heritage, does it not? Ie. George Orwell wrote fondly of Catalonia in his book Homage to Catalonia for this very reason. Yet this article doesn't seem to mention the period where anarchism was dominant in Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War. In fact, this barely mentions the Spanish Civil War, in which I suspect the Fascists were deeply suspicious and paranoid of Catalonian culture and tradition. Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 13:57, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't particularly a history article. I think that is decently covered at History of Catalonia; you might want to have a look. - Jmabel | Talk 23:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Edit history of Talk:Catalonia (disambiguation): 
(cur) (last)  06:44, April 30, 2006 Domino theory m (moved Talk:Catalonia to Talk:Catalonia (disambiguation)) 
(cur) (last)  16:50, April 5, 2006 Djln (moved Talk:Catalonia to Talk:Catalonia (autonomous community): disambiguation)

Hello!

According to the Statute of Catalonia, now Catalonia isn't divided on provinces, but in vegueries, a new territorial unit. The seven vegueries do not correspond to the old four provinces. This is a major change because none of the seven vegueries (Alt Pirineu [High Pyrinees], Girona, Ponent [Roughly "West"], Tarragona, Terres de l'Ebre [Lands of the Ebre], Barcelona and Catalunya Central [Central Catalonia]) has an article of its own, and I wanted to discuss this subject before making any changes.

What should be done in this case? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SatoshiMiwa (talk • contribs) 22 June 2006.

Do they cross province boundaries? If so, what about postal codes? --Error 23:33, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article says the GDP = 2.5%. 2.5% of what? In what year? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.77.181.208 (talk • contribs) 1 July 2006.

Do we have understands/reads/speaks/writes statistics on Spanish in Catalonia? I'd imagine that they are close to 100%, but that should probably be explicit. - Jmabel | Talk 23:27, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can tell you that is not like that if you move your ass somehow away from the Barcelon area. My grand parents do not speak Castilian (nover to be named Spanish since that is a historical mistake. How come to call a language Spanish if Spain is just a place where four nations exest. Castilian is one of them, but only one of them. Would you call British the English language???). So what I was saying, if pelple understand and can somehow (because mine is pretty bad) speak castilian, that is because of all the pressure the castilinas are getting the catalans galicians and basque undergo all through the media. And, please, do not say what you are saying in such a way that seems to say: you catalans are just cstilians. That really makes me angry and wish these bastards (that is how I call them) die. oups, I'll say pass away and that wil sould much better. anyway, not be here in my place. Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.37.17.161 (talk • contribs) 23 August 2006.

Despite your tone, if in fact the statistics would not be close to 100%, then that is all the more reason why they ought to be explicit in the article.

I said "Spanish" because this is the English-language Wikipedia, and in English the language is called "Spanish". I am fully aware that in Spain it would be referred to as castellano, but in English we would say "Castilian" only if we intended, for example, to distinguish it from Andalusian or New World Spanish. When you are writing/speaking in Catalan, do you avoid saying Alemanya because most Germans are not actually Allemanni? I'm sure not: you use the word your language uses.

I am by no means saying that Catalans are Castilians, and if you look at my edits you can easily see that I have repeatedly objected to people who have attempted to lump the Catalans in with the Spanish. But linguistic ability is another question than nationality.

Since you bring up the question of my own experience: I have been several places in Catalunya outside of Barcelona, and to the best of my memory I've never met a Catalan who couldn't understand Castilian/Spanish, and only one (pretty far out in the mountains) who could not express himself in the language at least as well as I could (which is to say, barely short of real fluency). I don't know how representative my experience is: I ought to be able to look at this article and find out, no? If we are giving statistics on knowledge of Catalan and Aranese, we should give statistics on knowledge of Spanish, or, if you will, "Castilian". - Jmabel | Talk 05:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Even after the inmersión lingüística process, I would say the figures are well over 90%, Nonetheless, it is hard to find statistics for political reasons. Regards, E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 12:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Methinks there is an error here, but since the subject of "nationality" appears to be sensitive in this article, I'll run it by the rest of you:

Second paragraph of article: "Catalonia was officially recognised as a nationality in the Catalan Statute of Autonomy enacted in 1979 pursuant to the Spanish Constitution of 1978."

Surely this should be one of the following:

• "Catalan was officially recognised as a nationality..."
• "Catalonia was officially recognised as a nation..."
• "Catalonia was officially recognised as an autonomous community..."

As I read (admittedly in a quick glance) the 1979 statute, the status asserted and recognized was "autonomous community". See: http://www.gencat.net/generalitat/eng/estatut/preambul.htm

Will someone more knowledgeable than I please correct this. Thanks.

Nationality, in Spanish legal system, is basically an euphemism of nation so this may not conflict with the definition of Spanish nation as the only one in the Spanish Kingdom according to Spanish Constitution. Some Autonomous Communities, apart from Catalonia, are also referred as nationalities. In the newly approved Statute, Catalonia is recognized as a nation in a non-legal part of the document, so this does not conflict with Spanish Constitution. Some feared that Catalonia being regarded as actually a nation in a legal document may ease international acceptance for its right to self-determination. For that reason, in order to avoid this, that reference was removed from the legal part of the Statute draft.

Of course, nation is rather a complex and politically charged term. For instance, Catalan independentists rarely regard the Spanish Autonommous Community of Catalonia as the territory of their nation, but the whole Principality, or more normally, the whole Catalan Countries. Toniher 15:34, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I concur completely with Toniher here. - Jmabel | Talk 18:59, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, from memory, the Constitution talks about "nacionalidades y regiones" not specifiying their number, name, extension nor location. --Error 23:05, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To complicate things even more, now we have Realidad Nacional as a step further over Nacionalidad but shy of calling itself Nación. I'm obviously talking about Andalusia's reformed Estatuto (see Andalusian nationalism for references). E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 12:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just copyedited the article, but as the article says that the August reforms gave Catalonia status as a nation, I used the word nation. That may need to be corrected. As a note, the independentists weren't mentioned, and the VCB pic botched the table formatting, so I removed the picture for now until the table gets done properly and the group gets mentioned -- they're obviously important, but the casual reader has no idea why, especially since the article says Catalonia is an autonomous government (or its own nation). MSJapan 15:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The only legal definition of Catalonia is the current Statute of Autonomy:

"In reflection of the feelings and the wishes of the citizens of Catalonia, the Parliament of Catalonia has defined Catalonia as a nation by an ample majority. The Spanish Constitution, in its second Article, recognises the national reality of Catalonia as a nationality." (end of the Preambule, see the full english version: [[2]])

This text "in exercise of the inalienable right of Catalonia to self-government" was proposed by the Catalan Parliament, approved by the Constitutional Committee of the Congress of Deputies of Spain and ratified by the people of Catalonia in referendum in 2006. --Joan sense nick 15:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are a lot of historical mistakes in this article. Please review it deeper.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.3.221.180 (talk • contribs) 7–8 October 2006.

Catalan was a language before Spanish, like Catalonia was a nation before Spain. The first remark of the word 'Catalan' is in the battle of 'Camps Catalàunics', when roman empire descendents defeat the huns in the lands of Catalonia. The first remarks of Catalan Nation (like independent regions of France in Middle Ages : Comtat de Girona, el Roselló, Comtat de Barcelona, Balears, etc...under a common name of Crown of Catalonia & Aragon) are parallel to the rise of the Al-Andalus, the time of the Reigns of Taifas (arab), etc... To resume. Catalonia was a nation (and Catalan his language) while the rest of Peninsula Iberica were under control of the Arabs (except Asturias, and the Basque Country). La Marca Hispànica (remarck the tilde) where a strategic military band (<---not the best word) to prevent the arabs go north. The Reconquist (the military expulsion of the arabs of the Peninsula Iberica (excuse me my english again, pls)) beguns in Girona. The catalan and french languages are more similar than catalan and spanish.

Im asking to Wikipedist to investigue deep in this themes, because there a lot of historical errors that had been covered by "oficial" Spanish history, not only in internet, but here, in Catalonia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.3.221.180 (talk • contribs) 7–8 October 2006.

I usually never answer to anonymous posters. But this, and others from the same IP deserve a strong

answer, as they show serious educational flaws:

• The Catalaunic Fields are near Chalons sur Saone, in northern central France. Hundreds of kms. away from nothing ever has been Catalan even in the widest sense. See Battle of Chalons
• Read the article History of Catalonia for a minimal knowledge of Middle Age Catalonia. One of the things you'll know there is that the first attestation of the term "Catalan" (in Latin) is from the XII century
• The historical evolution of the counties of the Hispanic March has nothing to do with your comment. The Balearic islands, for obvious reasons -wasn't reconquered till the XIII century- was never part of it.
• If Gerona wasn't reconquered by the Franks until 785 (see above reference), how could the Reconquista start there, if the Battle of Covadonga is usually dated 718-724, and by Gerona' date the Kingdom of Asturias border was already on the Duero river?
• See the Catalan Language page. Besides the complex status and relationships between the western Latin languages; and an almost geographical imposibility, no philologist asserts that catalan is closer to normative French than to Spanish (ever been in Paris?). If you'd said with Occitan, there are a lot of scholars that would agree with you, and probably me too.
• Somewhere else, you state that Catalan is older than Spanish. Saying that a language is older than other is usually nonsense, even more when both are derived from the same source (Latin) and almost for sure evolved in parallel. The first extant witness of Catalan and Castillian are roughly contemporaneous (IX/X century)

--Wllacer 11:24, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When the PSOE (socialist)& ERC (nacionalist) wins the elections in Catalonia in 2001 or 2002 (dont remember exactly), French goverment get afraid and very fast change the name of that Region. There was manifestations importants in France (not in Spain) for this 'hide of roots'. If you go to that part of France, you will see that there people feels more catalan than in Barcelona.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.3.221.180 (talk • contribs) 7–8 October 2006.

Hello. I have edited the evidence of catalan language in l'Alguer, in Italy, and the presence of the Almogavers in Greece. The expansion of Catalans, not only trading, but also military i think must be exposed, but i don't know the details.Thanks a lot.Excusme my english, isn't my natal language. It is catalan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.3.221.180 (talk • contribs) 7–8 October 2006.

I have edited the page but my changes have been deleted. In Middle Ages catalans were the former rulers of the Mediterranean. Please consult Crown of Aragon in Wikipedia to know the real conquests of Catalunya in times of the Crown of Aragon. Thanks a lot. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.3.221.180 (talk • contribs) 7–8 October 2006.

I edited some parts that I think that are very spanish unionist biased. It is not the problem of english readers of wiki that editors can't be objective. There was a link of libertaddigital.com please, be serious. This is an encyclopedia not a game. I hope that my edits aren't followed by lots of unionist putting "The spanish autonomous community of Catalonia (Spain) that has no international recognizement is a REGION which capital is Barcelona, the second largest city of Spain, near the Mediterranean sea, a sea which borders with the north-east of Spain that is the spanish autonomous community of Catalonia (Spain)". Hope people is more serious.

I agree up to a point with this idea but it is not biased up to that point, Despite that I edited some points and I think now it is more neutral. --83.45.130.186 22:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the article is more neutral now but it could be better without the use of subjective links of internet newspapers related with politic parties. --GillesV 19:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All people knows that libertaddigital is not neutral , less the article that Maurice27 is using: http://www.libertaddigital.com/noticias/noticia_1276295348.html and I cannot understand how a wiki admin can allow the use of a link like that. It is really annoying and strange. There are lots of sources that speak about the fines without attacking catalan institutions, catalan people and withouth comparing that with the Basque country , a complete different problem.--GillesV 19:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh i was complaining but now I must say that Asterion made a GOOD edition...it was not to ignore the fact but that libertaddigital article was not objective. --GillesV 23:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. The actual El Mundo article was difficult to find as the www.elmundo.es website search engine behaves quite erratically. Then I realised you need to select "Printed edition" in order to access the paper edition.

Another thing that needs improving now is the replacing/addition of alternative references in English. Most of the current ones are either in Catalan or Spanish and this is the English wikipedia indeed. Regards, Asterion^talk 23:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to thank Asterion for the search in El Mundo. (An article I was unable to find). But, after reading both articles, I still can't see or find any proven fact to describe the article by Libertaddigital.com as partidist or not subjective. All that the article does is to quote "la Agencia Catalana del Consumo" words (the pro-catalan side), and to quote "La Fundación DENAES" words (the pro-spanish side). Not in a single moment does the journalist expose his/her own criteria on the subject, then, the SUBJECTIVE writing of the actual facts by LibertadDigital.com is PROVEN, making this article completely worth for use in Wikipedia.

On the other hand, I would like GillesV to show where does the Journalist/Article "attack catalan institutions, catalan people [...]comparing ["them"] with the Basque country". (something the article CLEARLY quotes as "La Fundación DENAES words").

The fact IS THAT this article quotes both sides in a confrontation, (one of them to be against the prohibition by a small commerce in Barcelona to label all their articles only in spanish, while the catalan law indicates all articles have to be labelled in AT LEAST in Catalan.

GillesV considers LibertadDigital.com to be a NON-neutral press... I would like him to explain why is the "AVUI" newspaper so oftenly quoted and linked in the catalan Vikipedia, being this newspaper publicly and openly partidist of left-wing catalan nationalism

Thankfully, Spain has become in late years a DEMOCRACY where FREEDOM OF SPEECH and FREEDOM OF PRESS are something normal. The problem begins when people like GillesV believe that their own criteria and opinion should prevail over the other's, giving them the moral right to erase, criticize and censure other's opinion... But, that's another story... Maurice27 20:37, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]